this post was submitted on 28 Dec 2023
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If you don't care about using a webcam (it's very unstable on linux), the machine is good. However, if you want to use a linux laptop, get a linux laptop, not something conceived for windows with linux as an afterthought. https://linuxpreloaded.com/ has a list of shops that sell linux first hardware
If you do however insist on buying something that's windows first, it's advisable to check the linux hardware database with your model first. For example, here's the model you're buying. Somewhat consistently, these components aren't recognized across distros:
and no webcam is detected at all. Having one of the Dell XPS 13s myself, I'd rather go for a TuxedoComputers laptop if given the choice, but if you don't have that option and don't care about the webcam, then it's good choice.
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Just want to add that Framework isn't quite Linux first, more like Linux second / Linux conscious. With some tweaking it works great but there are sometimes little issues that crop up, especially if you're using the newest machines.
For example, when I got my Intel 12th gen Framework last year, X was super laggy (opening a terminal and typing a few characters might take several seconds). You'd have to end up disabling some kernel power management setting. That was fixed in later kernel releases and was because it was new hardware, but their focus pre-release was making sure Windows worked well on it, not Linux. Technically even now there's some kind of conflict between the ambient light sensor and the screen brightness keys and the fix has always been to disable the light sensor, so I've never actually used that feature on my laptop (unsure why Windows is unaffected).
It's still a great laptop and I absolutely love them, but I think other shops like System76 should get credit for their top-tier Linux support.
Thanks for the comment. That was the impression I got as well, but a few other comments I've read (on other threads) seemed to imply it was a linux first laptop.
I do remember the first time I opened the page, it was a windows laptop and was the reason I decided against buying one. Your comment does confirm it for me. I'll add a note to my previous comment.
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I had my framework AMD and I havent encountered any problem with fedora 39; besides very early bios (only affecting batch 1 and early batch 2, I believe) and a AMD display bug (which is documented in detail and fixable with one command).
Everything else works extremely smoothly, including webcam, brightness key, ambient light sensor, and privacy shutter. Honestly, I would put their support against any linux first laptop, their support team is very responsive, and their support lead was the ex-support lead from system 76.
One more bit of information: the very laptop on the fedora workstation webpage is a framework laptop. They seem to be on very good term with most distro developers, and likely will get more attention when something goes wrong.
I think most of the problem you mentioned are the nature of new hardware, not caused by poor support from framework.
However, one of the reason I landed on framework is because they offer cutting-edge hardware that other manufactures don't.
I think they are still the only linux manufacture that uses AMD 7040U chip, which is a great everyday chip with excellent power efficiency. This kind of make them stand out from the competition for me.
I don't think their Linux support is bad, but it's not Linux first. If Windows users had to run a command to fix a display bug it would have been held back until it was fixed. With something like System76 you get a laptop with Linux preinstalled that just works, no commands necessary.
Keep in mind I called them Linux-conscious / Linux-second. They still focus on making it a fantastic machine for Linux users, but I think it's a little less than some other shops provide for Linux.
They do let their Windows DIY user fix problems, for example the new AMD laptop requires a modified ISO, since the Windows installer don't have up-to-date wifi drivers.
Also Windows user needs to use command prompt to install firmwares, whereas Linux users don't need to.
All of these are documented in detail in their guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Windows+11+Installation+on+the+Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition/116
So I don't think they prefer Windows than Linux. It is just the nature of cutting-edge hardware: I believe they made the tradeoff between cutting-edge and stability (keep in mind, you can buy older hardware as well), not between Windows and Linux.
The only thing they can do better is have laptop preloaded with linux, but I cn kind of understand keeping laptop in stock with three different OS's and a DIY version while keeping everything up-to-date is a logistic challenge. Yet several linux laptop manufacture do offer that option.
What was your issue with the webcam? It may depend on the distro but mine works well even though I almost always use an external camera instead because most webcam quality sucks on any laptop and OS anyway.
Supporting Linux/open-source companies is certainly a plus. Not that there machines will work better but it makes more sense if you really want to adhere to the global philosophy of open-source. For the record I still didn't go that route because either I couldn't find the right machine or the price was significantly higher for similar products and I didn't take the "risk" to spend more without enough certainty on the build quality. Experience varies and I'm sad to say that I convinced a friend to switch to Linux and he immediately jump on a Tuxedo machine but unfortunately it had a lot of issues out of the box. One remains but I will not blame the company for this one (compatibility with a hiDPI external monitor).
The webcam straight up doesn't work on ubuntu and debian, which are supposed to be supported. I've tried multiple things from around the web ("add this apt repo", "enable/disable this kernel module", "use this git repo with
dkms", ...) and consistently ran into issues. Now I just use an external camera.Other people around me with the same or similar models had the exact same problem and there are many posts online about Dell's weird camera choice. It sours the experience quite a bit, IMO.
Tuxedo Computers has been a painless experience for me. Even got a relative one and after updating, everything works without issues and has been for a while now. Haven't heard any complaints.
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Thanks for sharing your experience. Always interesting to hear how things are (not) working for others. The only negative side of Linux - which is at the same time a good thing in other aspects - is the behavior difference across distros. Arch is working smoothly on the XPS 13 and the Razer Book 13 which is a very similar machine.
I have no doubt Tuxedo is great. My friend was just not lucky with his laptop. Like any brands there're various positive and negative stories about their machines. Just here we have different experiences with Dell and Tuxedo. That's just frustrating when you're trying to collect info to help you decide on a buy. Ending up with issues while you did your best to prevent them is really a killer to the excitement you should have with your new laptop.
Yeah, that's true. I do think it'll take a while before there's a truly good linux laptop brand that people will recognize and that'll show up in general ads. The brands closest to that atm are slimbook, purism, and tuxedocomputers, I think. But time will tell.
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