this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
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So what are we supposed to do?
Not sanction Russia?
Apply sanctions on an individual basis?
EDIT: Nothing of value down below, just me and someone who only wants to be outraged. Delve deeper of your own accord.
Are you under the impression I'm some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation? I have no idea.
My point is that holding everybody responsible for what the specific form of government of the specific country they happened to be born into is a confortable truth to push back on the much more controversial take of all of us being the very same thing.
And to get slightly more practical, it's asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I'll ask differently. Let's just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it's going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn't be sanctioned?
I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What's their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
There's plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
So it's literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you're still outraged about it?
I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.
I'm not a troll but it's unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.
A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is not the expression of their local communities. The idea that since you are attached to a certain place is equivalent to sharing the broad general responsibility of its actions through history is what ultimately fuels shit like, you guessed it, the Russian invasion of Ukrain itself.
You're literally avoiding answering the hard questions and instead throw up shit like that moth thing. That is standard troll behavior. Just because you want to believe you're not a troll doesn't mean you aren't one. Go on, prove me wrong, do the non-troll thing and actually answer my questions instead of tip-toeing around them.
Technically they are. The country is the governing body set up by the people that make up said country. In the case of Russia that government is corrupted and that government is to the detriment to its own people and now also a detriment to the surrounding countries. I am sympathetic to the struggles of the average Russian, but unlike you I don't live in la-la land where everyone gets to have and eat their cake. They've let their country slip into corruption and ultimately that is on them because we can't fix that without an even greater conflict. They've let their government get corrupted and the actions of that corrupt government has brought sanctions upon them.
And I get that not all of them are to blame, but we get back to the questions you deliberately avoided. Are we not supposed to sanction Russia and let them have their way with Ukraine? If we should sanction Russia and there is a costly way to make sure those sanctions wouldn't overreach, do you want your tax money to be spent essentially on the well-being of Russians. Even if you know you're likely to gain little to no benefit from that spending?
I was making what I thought was an obvious equivalence between your realistically impossible to answer question to the impossible question an insecure partner blurts out.
Are you asking what value I give money? What price I put on human lives? If I would give up everything to keep the innocents out of harm?
You see your question is way too broad.
But of fucking course I'd be willing to spend more not to impart sufference in innocent strangers, that's the point of most things people do daily when it comes to being an ethical being. Would you enjoy saving money if Police would simply arrest everybody in a 2Km range from any murder location and call it a day?
Then give those maintainers your money to get them out of Russia and help them get a different citizenship so they wouldn't be affected by the sanctions. If you don't have that money start a go-fund-me. After-all you said you'd give up everything to keep the innocent out of harm.
My question isn't about money, it's about how far you're willing to inconvenience yourself to help those unfairly treated Russians. The tax thing is just the bare minimum anyone could do because we're paying taxes anyway. It takes no extra effort on your part, it's just a question of where your tax money gets spent. Your quality of life drops but at least you know the wrong Russian didn't get sanctioned. Is that the inconvenience you're willing to make?
I don't see you making any inconveniences. I don't see you making any effort beyond being outraged on the web. But feel free to prove me wrong.
I never said I'm willing to give up everything...
Anyway, your "arguments" boil down to a shifting grey area between, "they deserve it" and a very dispassionate "there's no alternative".
It's simplistic and dangerous. I hope you are young.
Have a day.
Like I said, you're not wiling to do anything beyond being outraged on the web. My argument is very simple. We need to do something about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and that something is supposed to be something that is as inconvenient as it can be to Russia, while being as little of an inconvenience to us. Part of that something is broad strokes sanctions. The more specific you want those sanctions to be the more inconvenient it becomes for us. And by doing nothing you're agreeing with me because you're not willing to inconvenience yourself for those Russians.
You think I'm being simplistic and dangerous, you're the one wanting to have your cake and eat it. I understand that there's a clear trade-off in what you're demanding and I understand that most people, including you, are not actually willing to take that trade-off. You're the one being childish and throwing a tantrum because you're not getting everything you want.
Let me go back to the root of your ever shifting discussion:
Yes and that is not very much.
I'm not sure where and why you started going on about my personal hypocrisy toward the application of santions as the best strategy to counter Russian expansionism or how much it is agreeable as something to apply to the whole of the population.