davel

Are you a recently-unfrozen caveman?

You bought the Cold War II propaganda, which, to be fair, almost everyone has.

• The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
• The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
• Uyghur genocide allegations
• American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
• US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
• A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
• Affirmative action in China
• The blueprint of regime change operations

.
It’s funny how almost no predominantly-Muslim country is buying this, because they know it’s BS. https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330

#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.

The self-determination of which Ukrainian people?

• The oligarchs?
• The Banderites?
• The eastern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from the unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
• The men being pulled off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?

.
I doubt you actually know what real-life Ukrainians actually want, because I suspect your vision of the Ukrainian people may as well be from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And I suspect your conceptualization of self-determination is equally undeveloped.

I think the reason you’re interested in the Ukrainian people’s self-determination is because our governments and corporate media have spend the last two years telling you to care. But not real-life people. These are unrealized, cartoon Ukrainian people, who all coincidentally want exactly the same thing that Zelensky says Ukraine wants. They want you to imagine that the “self-determination” that all these cartoon Ukrainians want is exactly the same thing that the extremely corrupt, undemocratic Ukrainian government wants.

When I say I care about the Ukrainian people’s self-determination, I’m talking about the real-life, flesh-and-blood working class people, not the Ukrainian state.

Oh, did I get whooshed by a meme? :(

sir this is a public fora, people speak as they wish?

As you know, they do not.

Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Ukranians aren't nazis

The ones that are, are.

Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Misinformation, hate speech against UA

Only love speech for Banderites, please.

The Maidan protests were partially organic and partially inorganic. Yes there were people genuinely unhappy with the administration who protested. People were angry about the corruption before Poroshenko, and they’re angry about corruption today. Many western Ukrainians, especially Banderite western Ukrainians, were not happy with the election of Poroshenko and the the turn toward closer ties to Russia that it implied. But they were not the majority. The majority elected Poroshenko.

When the US wants regime change, it doesn’t do it from a blank slate. It investigates the endemic tensions and leverages them, inflames them. The US has kept clandestine ties with fascist elements in western Ukraine since forever. They leveraged them, and presumably whichever oligarchs who wanted to join in, under cover of popular protest. The job of Western NGOs like the National Endowment for Democracy job is to facilitate coups. “A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.” — Allen Weinstein, co-founder of the NED. Western media’s job is to paint color revolutions as entirely organic.

I hardly dismissed Western sources wholesale. Plenty of my links are to Western corporate & NGO sources.

Ukraine’s Western integration stems from its desire for self-determination, not just U.S. influence.

I mean, you say that like the people of Ukraine chose that path, but they didn’t. The Ukrainian oligarchs did, specifically the oligarchs that aligned with the US for the 2014 coup. They decided to bet on that horse. But I think it’s a stretch to call that self-determination.

Yes, Russia is shitty as well, and no less an oligarchy than the US. And Ukraine has been shitty & famously corrupt for decades; that didn’t start with Poroshenko. Russia, if given its druthers, would be imperialist, but since it presently doesn’t, it presently isn’t. Putin tried to join NATO once, to join the imperialist club, but that was rejected, because the US wanted Russia Balkanized & plundered instead. Russia has figured out it’s better off allying with Global South countries than attempting imperialist adventures upon them. And this war has accelerated that allyship.

“Actually, but Ukraine DID provoke”

Mostly NATO, and by that I mean mostly the US. The Ukrainian state is in bed with and dependent on the US, so yes it was and is a participant.

mixing in unverified, ideologically biased material with references that are legitimate

The implication here is, the more biased, the less trustworthy/factual. This is false, and anyway, I don’t think you fully see the bias baked into the supposedly unbiased sources. And “unverified” I suspect means not blessed by Western states (which are run by the capitalist class[1][2]) or Western NGOs (which are funded by Western states and the capitalist class) or Western corporate media (which are owned by the capitalist class).

isolated incidents

Liberals often view history that way, but historical materialists don’t.

It certainly is violent, as all invasions are, though it’s not a full scale invasion. Russia has not fully activated its military, and it has no intent on taking all of Ukraine. That would be a terrible idea, if for no other reason than the fact that ~~eastern~~ western Ukraine is very anti-Russian and has a lot of fascists who are virulently anti-Russian. It would be a terrible idea to try to permanently occupy it. In contrast, the annexation of Crimea was practically a cake walk, because most of the people of Crimea wanted to be annexed. And it seems it was for the best for them, because they didn’t suffer years of attacks by western Ukrainians like their neighbors to their north.

Still, by international law the invasion was & is illegal, and it certainly is violent. After the 2014 coup, an anti-Russian government—blessed by Victoria Nuland (who had been on the ground handing out cookies for the coup)—was installed, eastern Ukraine declared its independence. This independence was not recognized the Ukrainian government of course. It was a very messy situation. Ukraine was in a state of civil war from the coup until the invasion. I don’t know what percentage of the people of eastern Ukraine welcomed the Russian invasion/liberation. 30%, 50%, 70%? I have no idea.

Unfortunately, as complicated as that all is, realpolitik can’t be ignored. For an analogy, consider the Cuban missile crisis (BTW we now know that the reason Russia & Cuba did that was because the US had secretly installed nuclear weapons in Turkey).

Imagine if Russia (or say China) were expanding its “defensive alliance” into south & central America, and making plans to expand it further, right up to the California–Texas border, which would likely lead to “defensive” nuclear weapons right on our back porch. Maybe they’re in talks with Canada as well, in an effort to “contain” the US. Realistically—regardless of what is internationally legal (which the US usually ignores anyway)—what would the US do?

The US has has been working a plan to break up Russia for the last thirty years. Ukraine is just a pawn to the US. This is the confrontation the US wanted, with the hopes of starting that Balkanization. It doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Ukrainians’ lives, never mind their self-determination. The US does this kind of thing all the time.

They are build swift to trade with who?

With each other, obviously. Probably BRICS+ states, for starters.

people do that the government don’t actively do that

I guess if you’ve never known anything but neoliberalism, you might think that. But governments do indeed do things like this.

Yes, the self-determination of the Ukrainian people, the western Ukrainians and the eastern Ukrainians both.

And I believe in the right of the Eastern Ukrainians to not be attacked by fascist western Ukrainian paramilitaries[1] with tacit & overt support from the Ukrainian government and the US.

And I believe in the Ukrainian state to not suppress regional languages.

And I believe in the Ukrainian state to not ban political parties.