this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2024
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With trains, you don’t arrive sweaty, you can’t get run down by cars, and someone else parks it
I love trains but they give me so much anxiety. I have stories of facing harassment on public transport. But it’s not just me though, here’s some idea of why public transport can suck for women or other people in case my anecdotes are just that: https://www.metro-magazine.com/10111994/sexual-crime-and-harassment-on-public-transportation-a-study
California had to make a law for race-based harassment, so it’s not just a one place or just sex-based harassment issue: https://19thnews.org/2023/02/california-introduces-bill-harassment-safety-public-transit-systems/
If public transport can come without being subjected to people and whatever miserable state of mind they’re in, I’d like that. I can at least escape a dumbass in my car, but in a train they’re either right in front of me or nearby for a long time. How do we fix this?
Public transport is clean and safe when everyone uses it. In the US, the social expectation is that public transportation is for the poor. Like white flight out of US urban centers in the 60s, it’s a class thing, and owning a car becomes a self perpetuating class signifier. In most of the rest of the developed world, like London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. public transportation is for everyone, rich and poor. It’s just a question of investing in and valuing public transportation over cars.
Hmm idk about cars as a class signifier, they’re like phones now, everyone has one. I don’t disagree with you about public transport being for everyone, but I am not sure that examples of harassment and human misery will necessarily decrease because richer people are forced to commute. See for example, the price-based communal vans in Asian countries. I think it makes sense to actively work on making public transit better, but that requires an open eyed approach to acknowledging existing problems. Nothing can have perfect solutions, but an attempt needs to be made to at least acknowledge the issue and provide a preliminary solution.
The reason you're not afraid of being in public in any other circumstances are in public transportation is exactly, precisely because public transportation in US is shitty and stigmatized and the expectation is that only the poor are using it. This is the source of the problem, and the way to fix i is to improve it so everyone is using it, and the crowd in public transport will be the same as everywhere
The examples listed as better public transport still have the harassment and human misery issues. I don’t think it’s simply a matter of “get more people using it”. For one I think people who engage in harassment of any form should lose the privilege to use public transportation for a period of time, like we do with drunk drivers and their licenses. Or get them to go to classes like we do for road rage people. Maybe other countries are already doing this.
No, good public transportation will not eliminate all the misery in the people's lives, but also it isn't suppose to, and nothing will. Good public transportation however helps with making it the same level of misery as anywhere else, and usually even more. The particular issue of harassment isn't an issue in a good public transportation, because there are people there, there are structures, there are authorities and systems that can help. And besides, it's not like people just decide to harass other people the second they go into metro.
Bystander effect is real, plenty of people have been harassed without the harasser facing any consequences. I think one improvement over our current system would be to disallow harassers the use of public transport for a period of time, or provide them with mental health help? I am not sure if it’s the best solution, but it’s kind of similar to what we do with people who drive drunk, or those who have to get anger management classes after road rage. Fines would also be a good idea.
An anecdote: there was a lady once on a subway platform who was yelling about colored people. She wasn’t bothering anyone in particular, though. There was at least one incident of someone stabbing and killing someone for defending minorities. These interactions are not safe for people and defenders alike. Moreover, you cannot react fast enough in some instances if someone wants to hurt you. For example, people have been pushed off train platforms. Regarding getting police help, if someone is walking around wearing a poster of “Christ hates gays” or something, the police might not do anything because of free speech laws (or because they agree sometimes).
These things are all kinda related, better housing policies lead to less homelessness and less instability, and therefore people with less mental issues. I don’t think simply having more efficient public transportation will make using public transport safer. Perfect solutions don’t exist, so at the very least I hope there are also anti-harassment policies like fines, losing privileges for a reasonable and proportionate amount of time, or having to take mandatory classes or providing mental health help for the harasser.
I want good public transportation as well, but for me the definition of good also includes having adequate safety measures.
That said, I really appreciate the passion some community members display for their topics of interest. What gets annoying for me though is what appears to be an utter lack of empathy or consideration for an alternative view. I think I am done, honestly—some people will think I am inconsiderate regardless of what I say. Whatever.
Here’s some news from places with great public transportation which supports my point that efficient does not equal safe:
from Japan: https://tankenjapan.com/how-common-is-chikan-unwanted-touching-on-trains-in-japan/
From 6 days ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8829ked1x3o
on buses, https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/bus-crime-statistics
from Germany: https://www.thelocal.de/20230301/which-german-train-stations-have-the-highest-crime-rates
Note that I am not using one-off incidences as examples, but what you’d expect to be routine crime on a given day.