this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
1143 points (93.7% liked)

Memes

45727 readers
957 users here now

Rules:

  1. Be civil and nice.
  2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world 28 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (91 children)

The Nords found it because they keep their capitalism restrained as it should be to serve the interests of the people in their societies instead of the reverse as it has become here.

The problem, of course, is the market crony hyper-capitalists that spawned mostly out of the US are using their power/capital to do what they did here everywhere else in it's insatiable quest for growth/metastasis. The UK has already fallen to the faustian bargain of "YOU can live large, just sell out your fellow citizens." Germany is getting on board, France's people are fighting but losing. Unrestrained capitalism high on its own greed is absolutely cancerous and deadly.

Capitalism CAN when tightly, tightly straight jacketed, be used to incentivize labor as communism cannot, but it must be tempered by the heaviest of taxation for the commons. Being a doctor or a lawyer should yield better rewards than a janitor, but within fucking reason/sanity.

Should a Doctor be able to afford a bigger house and a nicer car than an average worker for their effort? Sure. Should they be able to afford 3 houses to the janitor's studio apartment in a bad neighborhood? No, both provide essential services to society after all.

There needs to be a drain for out of control capital acquisition or that capital will eventually be used to propagate greed and capture the regulatory bodies meant to keep the sociopath that is capitalism sedated and restrained. No individual should possess enough capital to have more power over socetal structures than their single vote allows.

In exchange for not allowing greed to run absolutely rampant as it does here, they go to college based on merit, get healthcare when they need it, don't end up homeless in hard times, don't sweat job security, on and on...

https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/happiness/

At least until the global markets find enough greed driven traitors in those societies to "turn the bull loose" there too. Because once they get a foothold, that's the ball game until collapse. Once that happens, they start using their for profit media machines to propagandize division within the citizenry, ensuring no meaningful counter movement, they use their power over government to indoctrinate children through education to call greed "rational self-interest," deify profiteers as "job creators," to feel hatred rather than empathy towards those that are struggling(herp derp those evil powerless homeless people are lowering my property values! If they can't/won't work, why won't they just die?), etc. That's why the US will need to collapse under the weight of its own corruption before things can even begin to improve. We're too far captured.

[–] Supervisor194@lemmy.world -4 points 11 months ago (26 children)

Amazingly well put. Capitalism is necessary. Unrestrained capitalism is deadly. The unfortunate reality of capitalism is that even as it is in the process of burning everything to the ground, it looks for all the world like glorious success. And it is glorious success, if you don't compare it to what could be in a system where it was properly restrained.

[–] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world -5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (17 children)

Thank you!

In their pure forms, I see capitalism and communism as extremes specifically with regards to human nature.

Communism starves our human impulses to succeed and grow, but capitalism gluts and force feeds our worst impulses exclusively, selfishness, unhealthy competition, jealousy, schadenfreude, sociopathy, self-delusion, narcissism, dehumanization, on and on, which is why I see it as the greater evil of the 2 in a vacuum.

A successful communist society would be very difficult to grow, but maybe that would be a good thing on a planet of finite resources that can take finite finite pollution. That's why the answer lies somewhere in democratic socialism, imho.

That's all academic though. The rigged market hyper-capitalists own this fucking place and have an iron grip on it. Plus communism would have kept the population low, as it should have been. It wouldn't be able to accommodate the needs of our ridiculously massive human population as it is. That ship has sailed unless we want billions to starve to right it and live within sustainable means in this finite habitat.

[–] Gabu@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Communism starves our human impulses to succeed and grow

Nothing about communism forces human impulses to be ignored, unless you mean the impulses we already suppress as sentient beings, such as fucking everything that moves or eating until we literally die.

[–] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

We are socially competitive animals, just as you can observe in other evolutionarily programmed creatures. We compare ourselves to others, we want to impress mates, etc.

Equality of economic outcome regardless of effort goes against that, which is probably necessary on a planet of finite resources and the scale of our waste, but it does go against that large aspect of our nature.

For the record, I'm probably closer to you ideologically than you think. I think unfettered capitalism does more damage to humanity and the planet than communism ever could, but if you think communism lacks any drawbacks and is perfect, you are mistaken.

There is no such thing as perfection, especially any construct made by mankind. That's coming from someone who is all for going Old School French on Wall Street and socializing entire economic sectors for the good of the citizenry.

[–] Gabu@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

We are socially competitive animals, just as you can observe in other evolutionarily programmed creatures. We compare ourselves to others, we want to impress mates, etc.

All of which can be achieved in a communist system, only instead of "look at my huge paycheck", it'd be "look at all these skills I've acquired thanks to free public education and more free time". People would stop mindlessly showing off innane manufactured waste and start actually acquire useful knowledge.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world -3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Man you're naive...you really think people are going to go around busting their asses to study, only to be rewarded with I have skills that allow me to do even harder mental tasks for the same physical rewards as someone who gets the same free time and paycheck and house and car as I do...

[–] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Your inability to imagine only reveals how pathetically greedy and underdeveloped you are.

I hope one day you develop an actual skill so you too can know the joys of not being a waste of oxygen.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You mean my inability to be naive... you're the type of tankie who would want to be in a position of power while not breaking sweat while the rest toiled away doing the hard manual labor...

[–] MotoAsh@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Wow, you're really so pathetically lazy you think I'm a tankie!? Bahahahahaha

Good job proving to us that you are indeed too stupid to learn on your own.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

You wanting to be able to study while everyone else slaves away and you both get the same benefits is tankie bullshit. Very very few people will work hard labor for no benefit, especially if those who are just sitting around learning make the same as them.

[–] Gabu@lemmy.ml -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm not naïve, it's just that you are a bad person whose moral code can't fathom working not for oneself, but for the betterment of the collective.

I already do just that, by the way - study for the sake of knowledge, not for increasing my capital.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Lol I run a equine and livestock rescue, and pay for peoples animals vet bills...out of my own pocket...the fuck are you to tell me my moral code is broken... I'm not the one advocating for communism...which always ends in dictatorship and death from those who want to keep it in place...naa you're absolutely naive.

[–] Gabu@lemmy.ml 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I run a equine and livestock rescue, and pay for peoples animals vet bills…out of my own pocket…

Which doesn't preclude you being a bad person. Hitler was very much in favor of minimizing pollution and afforestation, for instance. I.E. Non Sequitur, doing a good thing doesn't by itself make you a good person.

the fuck are you to tell me my moral code is broken…

A human being capable of rational though, exactly like you - only I stopped to think about this issue in particular, and you haven't, choosing to reply emotionally instead.

which always ends in dictatorship and death from those who want to keep it in place

False, observably. In fact, you're arguing from the position of proving a positive statement from a negative propostion, which is a fallacy.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Did you just compare me to hitler? Lol fucking tankies...ok stalin I think we're done here...

[–] Gabu@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I offered an example. Unfortunately, you seem unable to think rationally.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)
load more comments (15 replies)
load more comments (23 replies)
load more comments (87 replies)