Reading about FOSS philosophy, degoogling, becoming against corporations, and now a full-blown woke communist (like Linus Torvalds)
this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
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These numbeo rankings of yours are just another great example of how western propagandists like to play with numbers. It's pretty funny how you're very vary of numbers coming out of China because you don't trust them, but quickly lap up whatever numbers fit with your prejudices.
Here's the reality of poverty in India https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/governance/just-how-poor-is-india-10-per-cent-says-the-world-bank-85225
Why is India not having the same kind of rapid increase, why is it getting worse there, why did capitalism create the same problems in post Soviet countries? I love how you keep dodging these questions here.
This illustrates grade school understanding of what the working class holding power means. What that means is that the government is consists of predominantly working class, which it does, and makes decisions in the interest of the working class which it also demonstrably does. The fact that you have private companies in China doesn't make it any more capitalist than having free healthcare in Canada make it communist.
Here's an entire book you can read on the subject if you were genuinely interested in this question https://redletterspp.com/products/the-east-is-still-red
Would you mind explaining which data in particular you are looking at? According to your source, poverty rate in India has dropped from 22.5% in 2011 to 10% in 2019.
It's not getting worse, it's getting much better, just at a worse rate than economists projected. I'm baffled that you can misunderstand a 5-minute read so badly.
I don't think even the most pro-Capitalist person would try to tell you that Capitalism can fix all the problems of a collapsed communist society in only 30 years.
I'll see if I can pirate an audiobook, I'm not interested enough to read a book on it. I read some summaries and it looks like massive overkill for a really simple direct question. Maybe you should just stop dodging this question: how will workers take back the power and wealth of the billionaire class?
The one that says that Indian government refuses to publish the full numbers. I'm just going to ask you straight up whether you genuinely think the poverty reduction in India is comparable to China, because if that's so there's absolutely no point continuing this discussion.
Except there was no collapsed communist society. You just made that up. What actual studies show is that over 7 million people died as a result of capitalism being introduced. https://academic.oup.com/cje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cje/beac072/7081084?guestAccessKey=01c8dd9f-af1c-48b3-b271-eb5d3a45017c&login=false
If that's your idea of fixing things what else is there to say to you.
It's pretty wild that you say you're not interested enough to read a book on a subject you've been arguing about for two days straight. You clearly have very strong opinions on this, but you refuse to even read a book about it?
I didn't dodge that question. I answered it repeatedly. Workers already took power in China when the revolution happened. The government in China is by the workers and for the workers. You only have to look at the composition of the party to see that. If you bothered to learn how Chinese government works then you wouldn't be repeating nonsense here like a broken record.
China isn't run by the billionaire class. In fact, billionaires regularly being sentenced to jail and even executed is another clear difference between China and actual capitalist societies where such things simply don't happen.
All your claims have been debunked in detail by main people. Maybe spend the time actually learning about China instead of arguing here ignorantly?
I just love that you misread the numbers to reach the conclusion you wanted, and not the real conclusion. And when I call you out, without a beat you pivot to "oh actually it's that we don't have the Indian government's numbers".
This is apex "communists are not capable of admitting they could make a mistake".
It's okay man, we're all just human, we all make little mistakes sometimes. I've certainly apologized for mistakes on this site before.
I love how you don't see the problem with claiming India reduced poverty when they don't publish their numbers.
Oh, I think it's very sus India won't publish numbers, but that's not the point. The point is that I think it's hilarious that you tried to use it as proof to make your point, when you probably skimmed it too fast because you straight read it wrong.
Especially when you're trying to cultivate a perception that you're a well-informed person, that mistake is just extra embarrassing.
So, just to be clear. You're saying we should accept that poverty reduction is happening in India despite the fact that they hide their numbers. Did I get that right?
No, I think we should read an article thoroughly before misquoting it and looking really silly.
So, what part am I misquoting. Do be clear. As far as I can tell, you are saying that I'm wrong because you believe the numbers indicating poverty decrease in India despite the fact that India hides the actual numbers. That's your argument is it not?
Seems that reading the article critically is what you refer to as misquoting.
No, my argument is that you misread it, because you were trying to use it as proof that poverty was getting worse. The article said nothing about that.
I think using sources that you've misread and are quoting to incorrectly makes for bad messaging.
I'm starting to get the impression that you didn't actually read the article. It talks about poverty decreasing using the numbers that are publicly available from India while also pointing out the following:
It' also concludes that India contributed to an overall poverty increase globally which is another indirect indicator of poverty actually increasing there:
Hope that helps.
Your two quotes are referring to two different survey counts. Let me explain how this works: it's impossible to get an exact count down to every individual, you survey a population sample and then make estimates based on your population sample. This can be done by both government and private agencies.
Here are the two different surveys from the article broken down:
The NSSO survey, done by the Indian government, not officially released, but leaked to the media. All this article tells us about the results of this survey is that "poverty had increased". No years, no numbers, no percentages. Just three words.
The CMIE survey, done by a private company, used by the World Bank. We at least have the numbers for this survey, which says poverty has more than halved from 2011 to 2019. However, the World Bank already assumed that poverty would be decreasing rapidly, and put out global poverty estimations based on rapidly decreasing poverty before
When you quoted the World Bank as saying
That was referring to CMIE survey results being less optimistic than original World Bank projections.
I did make a mistake, I didn't credit you for the NSSO survey, which did indeed support your point. I think that's why you misread the conclusion of the CMIE survey. I think it's sus af the government won't release it, but I'm also a scientist. All we have from it is, "poverty had increased". Imagine I presented to you a new article that said nothing about poverty rates in China except "poverty had increased", how much would you value that piece of information?
You are correct that the published data indicates an overall decrease, just not as much as originally claimed. And you're of course right to say that a leaked report alone with a general statement regarding poverty increase isn't necessarily convincing. However, there is a lot of other indirect evidence showing that the poverty problems in India are quite dire today. Massive farmer protests are one example, increasingly volatile political environment is another. There are also lots of articles discussing lack of investment in the social safety net in India. All of this does not paint a picture of a country where there is any meaningful poverty reduction happening.
I acknowledge that there is conflicting evidence in the article I linked though.