this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2025
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I'm sure I'd be preaching to the choir if I told you that it's time for us to immigrate from übercorp owned social media and services. All of you have done so, so that's not the point of this post. Even though we are on these new platforms, the fediverse is still sensitive to requests from governmental bodies and organizations. Lemmy.zip has already blocked UK users and Lemmy.world will almost certainly do the same. Due to the size of Matrix's biggest homeserver matrix.org, the admins of said homeserver are beginning to follow the OSA and have already raised their minimum age to 18+. And instances who don't follow the Act could be subjected to insurmountable paperwork and even blocked from the UK, Australia and other countries enacting these outrageous laws soon.

Blocking UK users to avoid this is almost a necessity, and as Labour is attempting to get lawmakers to outlaw VPNs, we could be seeing the equivalent of the UK Great Firewall soon. However, it will take significant amounts of time, money and paperwork to outlaw VPNs and to get ISPs to block sites and protocols. This is where federated and open source platforms have an advantage, without being shackled by bureaucracy they are able to quickly adapt. But this is not sustainable, and eventually the UK will become even more overreaching in order to gain more control over people's Internet usage.

Darknets such as Tor, I2P and Yggdrasil are a potential solution, however they have multiple issues. Tor is slow and has a reputation of being used by pedophiles and drug traffickers. I2P is scattered in implementation and cannot handle high load. ~~Yggdrasil is alpha software and requires IPv6, which in many countries is simply not possible to use~~. Whilst these darknets are extremely resistant to censorship from other countries, with the only way to fully dismantle them would be to shutoff all access to the Internet, they still are not capable of handling modern Internet usage.

We might need new completely independent mediums seperate from the Internet to avoid this. Physical bluetooth mesh networks or other technology is an example. Maybe even a new version of dial-up. All I know is that governments will not stop here. I might seem like I'm overreacting here, but we need to be prepared for what is coming.

CORRECTION: I was told by a peer that Yggdrasil peers must have IPv6, however one does not need an IPv6 enabled network to use it, they just need an IPv6 operating system/device, which virtually every modern operating system including Windows and Linux does. Yggdrasil is actually Beta software.

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[–] r00ty@kbin.life 9 points 1 day ago

I live in the UK and host my own instance (not hosted in the UK). I don't really have any real active users other than myself and most signups end up being deleted as soon as they post some advertising spam.

So, to that end I ensured I don't have any communities marked as NSFW on my instance at all. But, I'm one person and cannot moderate the entire fediverse content I carry. When it moves to enforcement time and I see a definite sign of targeting fediverse hosts, or (as I expect will be a first phase) warnings being issued to fediverse hosts. I'll likely just close registration, go on an account purge and lock out content to logged in users only. Then scale down the operation to a server hosted in my own house and just for me.

If things start to turn into serious enforcement against fediverse hosts, I fully expect the number of instances that will allow UK users to drastically reduce. But, don't forget this is coming to the EU and US if things keep moving as they are. So, there may be no real way to survive as an independent forum/gathering place. And maybe, maybe that's been part of the plan all along? Hobbyists like me cannot provide the time or financial burden to perform age checks or moderate everything to ensure there's nothing that will breach the extremely (and deliberately) vague rules.

We live in interesting times.

[–] sobchak@programming.dev 7 points 1 day ago

If doing an overlay network (network on top of the Internet), you probably won't be able to do much better than Tor or i2p.

We confirm the trilemma that an AC [anonymous communication] protocol can only achieve two out of the following three properties: strong anonymity (i.e., anonymity up to a negligible chance), low bandwidth overhead, and low latency overhead.

https://freedom.cs.purdue.edu/projects/trilemma.html

This applies to all types of anonymous networks as well (BT, Wifi, etc).

[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 26 points 2 days ago (2 children)

meshtastic

Meshtastic is a project that enables you to use inexpensive LoRa radios as a long range off-grid communication platform in areas without existing or reliable communications infrastructure. This project is 100% community driven and open source!

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 20 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Lora is typically 50k max (theoretical 256k). So less than dial up speed.

It is in no way a replacement technology for wifi.

[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Obviously the solution is to have thousands of nodes per file transfer to increase the bandwidth.

This is a perfect plan which has absolutely no downsides.

[–] Integrate777@discuss.online 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Only one node can be transmitting at once, or signals can be lost, so nodes automatic hold back until the channel is clear. Meshtastic seems reliant on having as little traffic as possible, with the way ot works right now, it can easily be overwhelmed.

[–] Integrate777@discuss.online 10 points 2 days ago

Meshtastic can't even keep more than a few hundred nodes in memory..

[–] PattyMcB@lemmy.world 21 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Outlawing VPNs? Good luck doing business with the rest of the world

[–] l_isqof@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Good point. How tf are they going to work remote?

[–] ivanafterall@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Only tangentially related, but in the vein of privacy and circumventing surveillance, one communication idea I really like in that vein is from the show The Leftovers--the way the "Remnant" group communicates only by simple handwritten notes.

I just like the idea that something so rudimentary could theoretically overcome a lot of very high-tech snooping equipment. Good luck using your Stingray cell tower simulator to intercept my notepad scribbles.

[–] Sp00kyB00k@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Camera's or any other matter of visual detection. So perhaps we should get back into cyphers. Vigere anyone?

[–] ivanafterall@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Obviously, yeah, it wouldn't work in the middle of a Target. And given the AI tools that can use keyboard typing sounds to determine what was typed, it's even theoretically possible there's some bleeding-edge capability to circumvent it. But in general, if you're in some context where you're not sure if you're being listened to/monitored, handwritten notes would definitely work, because your biggest concerns are e-mail, text messages, phone calls, GPS, etc...

[–] pseudo@jlai.lu 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Visual regonition on image coming from many stream most of them having nothing to actually recognised as text is much harder to do than analys text in computer text format than come right to you.

[–] ivanafterall@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I also presume some level of common-sense. Don't do it near cameras, destroy the notes immediately, etc... It's not air-tight, but it's a surprisingly useful approach in many contexts where very expensive technology can fail.

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[–] admin@lmmy.retrowaifu.io 2 points 1 day ago

Thanks for this post and thanks to all the commenters here for great suggestions. Definitely commenting to remind me to come back here and add some of these awesome resources to my home lab.

[–] SpikesOtherDog@ani.social 24 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Wi-Fi mesh might be possible with neighbors, but mitm is extremely likely. Also, a non-Internet-routing protocol will need to be invented as I do not want possibly liable traffic to run over the clear web without some kind of tunnel.

[–] muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com 7 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Mitm isn't really a concern anymore as almost everything has SSL now.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au 18 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Tor is slow and has a reputation of being used by pedophiles and drug traffickers. I2P is scattered in implementation and cannot handle high load.

Physical bluetooth mesh networks or other technology is an example. Maybe even a new version of dial-up.

These are incompatible statements lol

Tor is fine, I'm looking at this on Tor Browser right now. I would say the jank level is about 20%. Quokk.au, actually, for some weird reason has significant problems with it (significant slowness and sometimes refuses to load a page). I actually have no idea what's going on with that, but it and I think one other site are the only Fedi sites that have any kind of problem at all. The majority (but not all) news sites and things work fine. Some things do not and I have to bounce over to some normal browser. The jank level is definitely not 0, but it's bearable.

I actually do agree about needing to set up a better architecture overall. Tor is an extremely special-purpose architecture for one thing only (near-bulletproof privacy and firewall traversal even against extremely aggressive government attempts to defeat both), which is honestly a pretty fantastic start, but there's a lot more that goes into "the internet" than just slapping a slightly janky but super-safe VPN over the front of it.

The main point is: Hey! Don't badmouth Tor, it's good (and the jank level of starting from scratch instead will be super high for any forseeable future.)

[–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 15 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Besides being slow I think the issues with darkweb can be overcome simply through general interest growing. Currently I personally have no real motivation to use such technologies beyond the decentralized fediverse on clearnet. But if things keep going the way they are, then I'll have motivation. I'm into digital media archiving so if that gets pushed further underground then I will have reason to bother.

I am paying attention of course, Canada is likely to copy cat EU/UK/AUS. Just as a general rule of thumb, but this stuff is in the works here too specifically.

Another thing to consider: https://handshake.org/

"Decentralized naming and certificate authority. An experimental peer-to-peer root naming system."

[–] pfizer_dose@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Two days from now there's a seminar happening in the capital city of my country on a technology called mesh/meshtastic(?). They claim to have found a way to send messages in blackout conditions.

I'ts difficult to find resources but here's a blogpost about it: https://blog.liamcottle.com/2024/05/01/getting-started-with-meshtastic

Not saying this is our solution, but I think these sorts of ideas and re-imaginings are what we ought to be in the pursuit of right now.

[–] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I just ordered a couple of meshtastic transceivers. Here's what it is:

LoRa is a patented radio technique that uses some kind of fancy spread spectrum technique to give very low power sub-GHz UHF radio somewhat impressive range. We're used to a single Wi-Fi access point being able to cover about the size of a large-ish house with wireless data. I can't pick up my house Wi-Fi in my workshop at the back of my suburban property. LoRa manages to reach out several miles on the same amount of power as a Wi-Fi signal. The tradeoff is bandwidth. A typical Wi-Fi connection can stream video, LoRa isn't really practical for much more than text messaging. It is my understanding that it's designed to do things like industrial telemetry.

On top of this is built Meshtastic, an open source mesh networking protocol. You buy a little circuit board that's got a microcontroller, a LoRa transceiver and a bluetooth transceiver. You flash the Meshtastic firmware to it, and now it is a "node." "Nodes" can be configured in several ways, but in general they'll sit there and scream into the void looking for other nodes. Messages sent are like "Tell John I say hello. Pass this on Three times." If your node hears that message, it will automatically transmit "Tell John I say hello. pass this on Two times." So in that way, nodes can automatically act as repeaters.

So they have astonishing range for their band and power, and the automatic relaying of messages means a message can propagate pretty far. Mind you, it has limitations similar to old school SMS; a message is pretty strictly limited to something like 288 characters, including emoji.

Many "nodes" don't have much of an onboard UI; some do but the main intended way for the user to access a node is over bluetooth from the Meshtastic app running on an Android or iOS device. Some units do have onboard UIs or can host a web interface accessed via wi-fi or ethernet.

Meshtastic essentially forms an ad-hoc off-grid SMS-like service. The bandwidth is simply too low to allow anything like web hosting, audio or video. At a ham convention, several hundred nodes saturated the available bandwidth just with procedural pings leaving no room for actual traffic.

Encryption is permitted on this network, I wouldn't exactly plan a coup over Meshtastic but I think I could coordinate meeting friends at a restaurant without being stalked.

If your project is to abandon the internet, this may be one of many tools necessary.

[–] pfizer_dose@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Woah thats insane, thanks for the summary. The stuff I had been reading about it was a bit dense for me as someone with 0 background in radio.

Maybe I'll get one and become a node

Yeah I hold a general class amateur radio license, and that's helped me wrap my head around how it works. And I've still got a lot of "somehow"s in my understanding.

[–] wintermute@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 2 days ago

The official website has a lot of good resources. You can burn the firmware into the devices directly from there.

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[–] limer@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 days ago

This tech we all use is advancing exponentially.

And we must be ready to embrace the dizzying changes in the next few years so that we can improve our lives and have better governments.

[–] Onyxonblack@lemmy.zip 6 points 2 days ago

We need to install fusion rockets on the far-side of the moon and crash it into Earth! All Problems solved!

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