I'm gonna ignore everything bad my country does and only talk about the bad things China does. If you mention that hypocrisy then you're doing a whataboutism and I automatically win the argument
Memes
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
My country does a lot of bad things... for example, it is not critical enough of China.
How many countries execute billionaires?
Give me a number
This is literally our first interaction and you have never once asked me a question
You're trying to dodge the question in the same clumsy, sullen way an eleven year old would.
How many countries execute billionaires?
There's a huge difference between societies run by and in the interests of billionaires, to perpetuate their rule and maximize their plunder, and societies that contain billionaires due to still containing private property for secondary and otherwise underdeveloped industries, who are prevented from gaining political power and whose existence is temporary as markets centralize and are folded into the public sector as this process happens.
You suck that billionaire tit like a good boy.
Why are anticommunists always such weird psychosexual freaks about it. Some kind of Freudian threat response at being told to share, perhaps?
"The ruling class"
Hmm, and what is your proposed solution to this nondescript ruling class?
Lol okay "communist", whats your solution to the problem of building a society from feudalism within a global capitalist context? And I better not hear some "Erm, not this" bullshit, give me your path forward.
I gave you good-faith conversation, and then you sexually harassed me. You're a troll.
Not really angry, just like I don't get angry at Flat Earthers. Sexually harassing someone and then being proud of percieved anger is pretty low, trollish behavior, so I don't really care what you believe.
A supposed "communist" that sexually harasses people, can't actually respond to the Marxist take on the PRC's socialist market economy, and instead dogmatically reduces socialism to "no billionaires" rather than political control by the proletariat and a publicly driven economy? I think not.
The ruling class of the PRC is the working class. Billionaires in China exist because private property exists for secondary and highly competitive industries, while the backbone of the economy is driven by publicly owned industry. The purpose of marketization for these secondary industries is to help integrate with the global economy and gain technical knowledge from western countries, a plan which has worked and is why China is pivoting farther towards increased socialization. Capitalists are not the ruling class in China, the working classes gained political control in 1949.
Also, the creepy sexual harassment was entirely unwarranted on your part, but it's unsurprising. If you want to argue against the Marxist position, you can do so without resorting to such vulgar displays.
Hell yeah dude creepy sexual harassment plus cowardly denial plus lying about what's being said plus racism
Next time i say anticommunists have no points, I can just point to the loser shit you're writing.
You’re the one who took that sexually. That’s says a lot about you.
Please, explain exactly why telling me to "suck that billionaire tit like a good boy" isn't a psychosexual attack drawing on societal shame of homophobia and sexual submission. I want to know what you actually meant by that.
Continue pushing the narrative that billionaires are good. Keep getting that $.50
Billionaires aren't good, never said they were. I explained why they exist in socialist states, and why their existence is temporary, and how they don't control the state. You didn't have an answer to that, so you sexually harassed me and are now accusing me of being paid by China, which itself wouldn't excuse you from countering my argument even if that was true (which, for the record, it is not).
long explanation of the background of Reform and Opening Up, the problems with the Gang of Four, and China's socialist system
China being socialist has nothing to do with the name of the party in control, and everything to do with the mode of production and distribution in China. Rather than a neoliberal paradise, it’s closer to a nightmare for neoliberals. This editorial from The Guardian explains it quite well, actually:
But Xi’s support for mixing private and public ownership structures was purely pragmatic. It had value, he said in another forum, because it would “improve the socialist market economic structure.” Xi’s assessment is echoed by Michael Collins, one of the CIA’s most senior officials for Asia. “The fundamental end of the Communist party of China under Xi Jinping is all the more to control that society politically and economically,” Collins argued earlier this year. “The economy is being viewed, affected and controlled to achieve a political end.”
...
The party’s overarching aim, though, has remained consistent: to ensure that the private sector, and individual entrepreneurs, do not become rival players in the political system. The party wants economic growth, but not at the expense of tolerating any organised alternative centres of power.
…
“[Capitalists] act as if they are being chased by a bear,” wrote Zhang Lin, a Beijing political commentator, in response to these comments. “They are powerless to control the bear, so they are competing to outrun each other to escape the animal.”
How then, does China’s economy work? Public ownership is the principal aspect of China’s economy. This means that public ownership governs the large firms and key industries, and is what is rising in China, as private ownership is kept to small and medium non-essential industries. No system is static, meaning identifying the nature of a system depends on identifying what is rising and what is dying away. Cpitalists are held on a tight leash, and are prevented from gaining political power as a class. The reason private ownership is allowed at all is because China has very uneven development due to their rapid industrialization, and private ownership does help with filling in gaps left by the primary aspects of the economy like SOEs.
The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
China does have billionaires, as you might then protest. China is in the developing stages of socialism. Between capitalism, which is characterized by private ownership being the principal aspect of the economy and the capitalists in control of the state, and communism, characterized by full collectivization of production and distribution devoid of classes and the state, run along the lines of a common plan, is socialism, where public ownership is principle and the working classes in control. China in particular is working its way out of the initial stages of socialism:
The reason China has billionaires is because China has private property, and the reason it has private property is because of 2 major factors: the world economy is still dominated by the US empire, and because you cannot simply abolish private property at the stroke of a pen. China tried that already. The Gang of Four tried to dogmatically force a publicly owned and planned economy when the infrastructure best suited to that hadn’t been laid out by markets, and as a consequence growth was positive but highly unstable.
Why does it matter that the US Empire controls the world economy? Because as capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism.
In the People’s Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn’t steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing’s faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized.
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Deng’s plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.
China’s rapidly improving productive forces and cheap labor ended up being an irresistable match for US financial capital, even though the CPC maintained full sovereignty. This is in stark contrast to how the global north traditionally acts imperialistically, because it relies on financial and millitant dominance of the global south. This is why there is a “love/hate” relationship between the US Empire and PRC, the US wants more freedom for capital movement while the CPC is maintaining dominance.
Fast-forward to today, and the benefits of the CPC’s gamble are paying off. The US Empire is de-industrializing, while China is a productive super-power. The CPC has managed to maintain full control, and while there are neoliberals in China pushing for more liberalization now, the path to exerting more socialization is also open, and the economy is still socialist. It is the job of the CPC to continue building up the productive forces, while gradually winning back more of the benefits the working class enjoyed under the previous era, developing to higher and higher stages of socialism.
In doing this, China has presented itself to the global south as an alternative to the unequal exchange the global north does with the global south, which is accelerating the development of the global south. China is taking a more indirect method of undermining global imperialism than, say, the USSR, but its been remarkably effective at uplifting the global working classes, especially in China but also in the global south.
To call China “imperialist” or “capitalist” is to either invent a fantasy of China or to not understand imperialism, capitalism, or socialism. China isn’t a utopia, it’s a real socialist country.
Can you elaborate why the Marxist analysis is wrong?
Sorry, friendly fire.
No worries! I think you can restore removed comments?
I can’t restore comments that were deleted via “Remove Content,” so in this case, no. They’re the comments that don’t show up in the modlog. It’s an outstanding bug.
Is this a problem that was introduced between 0.19.13 and 0.19.18? cuz I just did it on my own instance.
Edit: I just checked the issues for lemmy on github, didn't seem like there was any
Behold, the towering height of liberal political analysis. "Everything is fascism except actual fascism, which is fine."
If we're pathetic fascists, that should spur introspection about why you're losing hearts and minds to us en masse.
The communists here are Marxists, Marx would be happy. It was the communists that beat the Nazis, communists hate fascists.


