this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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We’ll see (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 11 months ago by sjmarf@sh.itjust.works to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

What exactly separates the grammar of "I (and Dave) am going" vs "Dave (and I) is going"?

The same thing that seperates the first one from "going Dave am I and". Word order matters.

the order of the coordinations is a matter of style, not grammar.

Categorically false

Therefore, the only "wrong" grammar is constructions that natives wouldn't use

Wrong again. Plenty of native speakers of just about every single language there is have atrocious grammar. Native ≠ correct grammar.

It's not wrong, merely a different register of speaking

It's wrong when it comes to grammar. Whether or not gramatically incorrect colloquial speech is acceptable and sometimes even preferable to being gramatically correct (it is in most cases, but in some it can be very grating) is a different matter entirely.

Accepting only prestige dialects as "correct" grammar

Nobody said anything about dialect

people continue to think things like "black people don't speak right

As I mentioned earlier, colloquial speech can be as good as or better than gramatically correct speech in some cases.

You're mixing up a whole lot of things that aren't grammar and just generally being wildly wrong all over the place.

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Native ≠ correct grammar.

Then who's the authority on grammar? We don't have a single entity like the academie francaise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise?useskin=vector

[–] dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Just because there is no central authority does not mean there is no general consensus. English classes from elementary school to university aren't accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.

Descriptivism has a place in the evolution of language, but not in a wholesale "everything native speakers might say is grammatically correct if they are understood".

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 2 points 11 months ago

English classes from elementary school to university aren’t accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.

So who has the authority when experts disagree? Like I said, no one is saying "I house go" but some people think "Give this to whomever comes here first" is correct while others argue for "whoever". Descriptivism by definition seeks to explain how language functions. Prescriptivism only works within a narrowly defined framework, like APA or MLA for example, but even within those there's disagreement.