this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2025
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We may have got here eventually anyway, but things are a lot worse for Americans right now because of Trump's Republicans. Let's not lose sight of that when complaining about the shit they have in common.
There's also nobody who might emerge out of the right who would bring something that will make life for everyone better. Only the Democrats have a chance of doing that and engineering a better system that might eventuallyundermine their own political hegemony. Would they without pressure? Of course not. But the right will never even be pressured to do anything like that intentionally by it's base, almost by definition basically.
No they don't
The Democrats couldn't be pressured to stop doing genocide even at the cost of losing the election
I don't think you're listening. That's one of the issues both sides share in common that sucks. Doesn't change the fact they're our only hope.
I'm listening, I just think you're wrong.
And I brought up that issue specific to show that the Democrats also "will never even be pressured to do anything like that intentionally by it’s base"
Progressive social change has always occurred under the auspices of the left-most of the two major parties. That's just how it overwhelmingly is. What's not to agree with? How do you think progress will happen next time it happens?
The hallmark progressive achievements made in this country, many that still exist today (to varying degrees ofc) were a result of third party sweat, blood and tears. Literally.
I recommend reading about the social/workers rights movements of the early 1900s. The Progressive Party led by Roosevelt, The Bull Moose Party with social reformers like Jane Addams and Florence Kelly, the Socialist Party of Eugene Debs.... all of these were most prominent in fighting for and ultimately producing a cluster of social welfare, social insurance reforms, women's suffrage, workers rights/5 day work week, etc.
It was the dedication, pressure and will to not fall in line trying to change the two-party duopoly from within but to build their own coalitions, their own movements on the outside, and thus the mainstream parties were eventually forced to inscribe the populus demands into legislation.
All that to say, healthy third parties are a good thing. It builds actual pressure on your legislators. Politicians wont work on your behalf when they know you're voting for them anyway – just line their pockets with money from the bourgeois they actually legislate for. Seeking the change you wish to see via third party can and has produced tremendous gains for the working class.
If your only hope is a party comitting genocide you might as well abandon it and look elsewhere
Where?
PSL, DSA or whoever organizes where you currently are
You can and should support them as they align with your values, but you'll never get enough votes for them to have any chance of overthrowing the big two. It has to be changed from within, unless you're prepared to try violence.
Since changing from within is impossible, and voting in a new party is highly unlikely, it seems the revolutionaries were right all along.
Why do you think change from within impossible?
That's exactly what Trump and MAGA did to the Republican party.
Violent revolution brings change but rarely the kind of change most of those who engaged in it actually wanted.
Well, first, MAGA isn't really a qualitative change to the GOP, and is fully compatible with bourgeois rule, unlike trying to get socialism to overtake the DNC. Secondly, revolution is by far the most successful way at bringing about what those engaged with it wanted, not sure what you're talking about here.
I would have much preferred a connections Republican party over what we got.
If revolutions bring ultimately successful, examples?
I know there are some, with the obvious one being the American Civil War that ended slavery. But, wars come with an intense cost to human life, and sounds be a list resort. Precisely because most around the world have not been successful, and have lead to things like military rule.
Regardless of how you feel about the GOP, the extent it is allowed to change is the extent to which the ruling class can continue to have their interests served. The DNC is the same in this respect, neither can go against the system dominated by private ownership, but they can slide around as long as they adhere to that.
As for successful revolutions, many. Algeria, Haiti, Cuba, China, Russia, Vietnam, etc. All have delivered much better results for their people post-revolution as compared to pre-revolution. Revolution happens because it's necessary.
Fuck voting, organizing is where its at. I swear if just half the free time as some people on here... (not you specifically)
Organizing to do what?
anything mutual aid. Soup kitchens, unions, whatever, as long as it builds class solidarity.
I mean sure but better if all in attendance vote for a better future at the ballot as well.
Listen to yourself. You're saying the Democrats are our only hope yet they also don't listen.
Democrats do listen, but only to those with power. Before anything can change for the better we need power for ourselves.
And how will we do that?
Genocide Joe, you're my only hope
The thing is that your asking tankies to be pragmatic about policy. They would rather let the Palestinian Genocide continue and works lose more rights than to do anything helpful in the near or medium term. They just aren't serious about the issues.
Its easy for the .ml types to cry and wait for a perfect policy or candidate. They aren't going hungry, nor under seige of any kind.
This “pragmatism” is how we got here in the first place.
We’re not looking for a perfect candidate under bourgeois democracy, because we know it will never happen. Previously:
In either case you're not doing shit and you're not a serious movement. Tankies don't vote to minimize harm, nor do they vote to expand the progressive wing.
You all are effectively the ratchet democratsyou laughs at because you ultimately won't show or organize for anything. Tankies aren't serious people.
Schrodinger's leftists; simultaneously the reason the Democrats lost the election and the biggest obstacle to progress, but also not a serious movement.
Non.voting is the largest block going back multiple cycles. Trolls like you are concerned but not enough to show up. I'm aware of your trolling, so I won't entertain you much more
In other words, you're wrong and you know it, but you're too huffy to admit it, so you're going to try to pretend like it's too below your dignity to actually respond to someone who disagrees with you. You're just so self evidently right, after all.
By which you mean that I've disagreed with you before and you couldn't deal with it then either
Oh I remember you, you were that loser who started stalking me because I called out your genocide denial.
I guess your ban expired
Lol, so following me around to make sure everyone knows you lost an argument to me and got mad
The feddieverse is small. You replied to me here.
We were talking about you stalking me around, remember? The thing you were banned for.