this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2025
497 points (85.7% liked)
Memes
52930 readers
972 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 6 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Both are true, this is a dumb argument and common bad faith fallacy.
how is it bad faith?
Because it intentionally neglects the harm caused by the Great Leap Forward, or various soviet famines. The statement is designed to deflect attention and responsibility from A to B and use hyperbole to create outrage.
Its possible to argue that both China and the Soviet Union were not actually communism but rather authoritarianism but for the sake of common understanding we will refer to them as they refer(ed) to themselves.
So did millions of people die because of "communism?" the facts say yes. So do millions of people die because of Capitalism? the facts say yes.
Both are true statements, and using hyperbole and outrage to deflect or minimize one or the other is in bad faith.
This is pure projection. The meme doesn't 'neglect' anything.
Your objection is essentially that you want to label something as 'bad' but not allow the necessary discussion of 'relative to what?'
Your system deliberately murders an order of magnitude more people but we're not allowed to talk about it because you say so and we all give a huge shit what you have to say because you're so well read on the subject lol
We are talking about it, and its not my system its the one I am trapped in, and I still would not want to live in either Russia or China.
I also dont want to live in the US, I want the Star Trek future now, all people have value.
China is by far the closest country on Earth to that Star Trek future. No other country is as developed and is presently socialist. It has a long way to go, but is already overtaking capitalist countries.
there is no amount of propaganda that would make this believable. The fact that there is forced labor, and decent is punished is just as unacceptable in China as it is in the US. When I can freely and safely criticize Xi Jinping I might be interested. There are lots of aspects of China that I love and want to see but the authoritarian government and regional provincial governors are NOT something i want to risk.
China has outlawed slavery and forced labor. Capitalists trying to manipulate the media is punished, correct, but that's something widely supported by the people. China is democratic, and the people support their system, because it works:
All states are "authoritarian," in that all are embedded within class struggle and represent the ruling class. Dissent is punished in the US and in China, the difference is that the capitalist class is oppressing workers in the US, while the working class is oppressing capitalists in China.
You owe it to yourself as someone desiring a socialist future to genuinely try to understand the Chinese system, and why it's so widely supported by its people.
I have a hard time giving weight to a self reported survey like the one you linked. I dont doubt that people in china feel like they are free, and I suspect that many also ranked their freedom highly because they fear reprisal if they say otherwise.
Many aspects of China are democratic, other parts are not, Xi Jinping is a life time dictator and cannot be replaced by democratic systems. He is an authoritarian and Bourgeoisie, your suggestion that the working class oppresses capitalists is demonstrably false https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides for example. These were western capitalists treating workers with raw brutality. The CCP was complicit and did not protect their workers because it was seen as generally beneficial to have these manufacturing contracts.
You don't know me, you are making assumptions about my knowledge, experience, and connection to China based on a few responses on lemmy.
I hope China is able to return to the ideals that were espoused through the revolution, and I will cheer if they truly reach a level of equality not yet seen in humanity.
It isn't just one survey, it's regularly and repeatedly affirmed that the people of China support their system. Xi is not a dictator and can be removed democratically. He is further not bourgeoisie, he owns no businesses. This is all vibes-based and does not correspond to reality.
As for Foxconn, it sparked widespread protests and backlash, and has been responded to. Even then, the suicide rate at Foxconn was lower than China's overall rate, which is lower than the US's overall rate. China isn't a perfect society, it's the regular and continuous improvement that makes it much better.
You're right, I don't know you. What I do know is informed by the incorrect statements you make, and that shapes the level of knowledge I believe you have.
We can disagree on Xi being an authoritarian/dictator, from my perspective and experience he is effectively a dictator.
I was actually happy with some of the improvements made as a result of these suicides but more still needs to be done, and the Uyghurs people are still suffering under the regime.
Xinjiang has similar levels of approval of the PRC and CPC from what I've seen. Where are you finding this alternative information? You keep claiming things that don't appear to be backed up by reality, just vibes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Jinping
It is a perception that is so common that its on Wikipedia. Its not just vibes, its researchers, journalists, academics, and other organizations that have a similar perspective.
Yes, it's a perception deliberately pushed in western countries and the english speaking world. I have given you hard numbers and studies, you've told me that westerners think he's bad. That's not exactly a solid case, right?
your hard numbers and studies were based on self reported surveys.
World wide consensus, it could be wrong but I have not seen any evidence that its not. I wont deny that any western source is at risk of bias, that is part of the problem with freedom, people with too much power can buy the stories they want.
Read the links, there is consistent support for the CPC within China. Your only counter is based on vibes and western consensus, who are actively hostile to communists.
kinda don't give a shit what you have to say in response to my criticism when you aren't going to respond to the criticism at all
you can claim to love all good things and hate all bad things
literally zero bearing on what you said or what I said in response
I think that's because we have a difference of perspective on degrees of bad. I think all deaths caused by capitalism are bad, and equal bad to all the deaths that are the result of authoritarian countries calling themselves communist.
So i fundamentally disagree with the "relative to what" because a life is worth the same regardless of where they live and who they are.
We are able to, and I am talking about the harm, and I am pointing out that this meme is designed to create an emotional response to the 2nd point and not to both points. Thats all, its manipulative and propagandist which makes it in bad faith, and you are welcome to defend either position, I will just disagree.
You want to obscure the larger number because you want the smaller number to look bad. We're not allowed to talk about the larger number. We're not allowed to criticize your side.
So what you just said is a fucking lie, isn't it? If they were equal you would permit both be examined. You would admit that the one with the larger death count is worse. That's the exact opposite of what you're pushing for. Your agenda is at odds with reality.
You don't actually care about people dying. Your actions betray your rhetoric.
And there you go doubling down. Hollow rhetoric sidestepping the actual objection. Cynical. Deliberate.
And I think we can all put together why you disagree (you're a nazi).
Not my side, and no I dont want to diminish the larger number, same as I dont want to diminish the smaller number. People should not have to die for political or economic system to function.
I am examining both, and I am pointing out that the image posted does not examine both, it deliberately attempts to shape the discussion around ignoring self proclaimed communist deaths.
What? I am sorry what actions am i taking that betray my values?
I dont know how you came to the conclusion that I am a Nazi, but I can assure you I am not. I dont want to kill or marginalize any group, and I have actually been working for years to cast off my inherited privilege or use it for reparations.
Only in so far as you mouth the words that you don't support them while rhetorically supporting them.
Yet you are. Belligerently so at this point.
Mind palace baby brain. Once again flattening all context and history to equate a system that literally functions by killing people and one that you wish to paint as equal because mortality continued to exist under it.
If you were doing that out of ignorance one would hope you would have the humility to not dig your heels in so I assume you're doing it deliberately to advocate your side. Because you're a nazi.
You're not betraying your values; you're lying about what your values are.
And I bet you could convince sleepwalkers who aren't paying close attention that you actually mean this shit. But you do indeed want people to die, and you want them to die by the tens of millions each year. That's the functional position you're taking by defending those deaths. And you can't pretend you're not defending them by hiding them behind a curtain while you demonize the alternative that costs fewer lives.
You're a nazi because you want to use violence to defend capitalism. That's pretty much the textbook definition of fascism.
You don't know what a fallacy is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_a_disjunct
I choose you! Sophomoric invocation of a fallacy that doesn't even apply in this situation!
Lol posting a link to a wikipedia article doesn't actually help your case here
Even BBC doesn't have it as one of their 7 ways to check
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240709-seven-ways-to-spot-a-bad-argument