original claim, which was itself a lazy, absolutist statement. You opened with a blanket assertion about communist systems being inherently unaccountable and impossible to remove.

Yeah, never did communism bring to power a impossible to remove group or person focused on increasing their power and blocking any chance of keeping them in check. Unheard off.

Where do I state that communist systems are in general impossible to remove? I live in a country where it was removed without violence (other then that of the regime against workers).

I responded by mocking that certainty. If you read that as some kind of debate tactic instead of what it was, that’s on you.

Yeeeeah, right.

If you mean the DPRK, you’re ignoring basic context.

Yeah I do and no I dont. 3 generations of absulute rulers from a single family is not communism its monarchy.

This comes after a war where US bombing killed an estimated 15% of the population (majority civilian casualties with estimates as high as 70%) and destroyed most infrastructure. Given that history, it is not surprising they emphasize continuity and stability tied to the legacy of Kim Il-sung. You don’t have to support it, but pretending it developed in isolation from that pressure is not serious.

WW2 killed 20% of my coutrys population, and whatever industry was not destroyed during got taken away after. We had building up might of NATO combined tank armies some 300km from oir borders, and '60 US plans to drop 20-50 nukes on my city alone in case of war. Still a stalinist and than socrealist government with a considerably normal succesion of power (other than one leader being killed in Moscow).
How come did we not develop a monarchy with such a similar context?

Calling the Khmer Rouge(who I assume this is about) “communist” is not just inaccurate, it’s indefensible

Oh is it? Is it like something anti-communist and hostile to its society grew out of a originally communist/maoist party? Would that be exactly the point Im making and youre prettending not to see?

built on extreme agrarian nationalism that rejected industrial society entirely.

Well our communist party organised a state sanctioned antysemitic pogrom. Go figure. Its just like calling onself a communist might not be enought sometimes.

Vietnam, an actual socialist state, is the one that overthrew them.

Exactly what I was referring to, but thanks for pointing it out, I feel educated comrade.

US support for Khmer Rouge after 1979

Is US supporting a fanatical regime to subvert another state anything surprising to you? Why do you assume it would be for me? Amd what does that have to the original point?

This is recycled Cold War propaganda.

Mate, thats a living memmory of my family, same as millions around as. You have to be a westerner not to know or understand that. It was criticised by the party itself. Thats also propaganda?

Even the CIA’s

Ddnt know you trust CIA reports. But that only works, when absigle one supports your point I guess?

I’m a born and raised rural Chinese minority. I’ve done well for myself, but I’m far from rich.

Must have been very well, Ive been to China and I dont see any of the language patters of people from the private sector. That doesent sound like state educated english. Also what time is it at your place? Pretty late id say.

What I have experienced directly is my village going from abject poverty to modern living conditions in under 25 years, largely through state-led development grounded in communist principles.

Isnt last 25 years more like state capitalism? Again Ive been to china i do understand and apriciate the scale of changes, but it is a market economy.

Meanwhile, you’re speaking from Poland, where the political trajectory has been steadily rightward, with increasing hostility toward left-wing movements.

It has been bordering of fascism since 20 years. My house was stormed by fascist militants attempting to set it on fire, but do tell me more.

Your argument reads less like analysis and more like it’s shaped by that environment, repeating familiar nationalist narratives instead of engaging seriously with the material history.

Yeah, no.

Yes, shock therapy did all of that. And attributing it to communism is a fundamental error.

No mate. I was very clear. Not communism. Elites of whatever came out of supposed communism.

Blaming communism for the outcomes of policies imposed after it was removed is incoherent and frankly idiotic.

Yeah, and your the one making that point to have something to foght agsinst.

As for the crackdowns, they occurred in the context of systemic instability, political fragmentation, and mounting external pressures. Reducing that to a one-dimensional story about “communists vs workers”

They sent tanks on to striking workers.

while ignoring what replaced that system is not a serious reading of history.

They did that before knowing and participating in the system change.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 hours ago

To which I replied:

"Where do I state that communist systems are in general impossible to remove?"

Your opening sarcasm was a universal claim. Now you narrow it after being pressed typical.

"3 generations of absolute rulers from a single family is not communism its monarchy."

Labeling is not analysis. The DPRK's political form developed under total war, permanent sanctions, and existential threat. Poland faced pressure too, but the material base was not the same. You cannot compare a state flattened by carpet bombing followed by brutal sanctions to one that retained industrial capacity and was supported by multiple blocs post war. Also they are elected and rule collectively through a Congress but I'm sure you'll dismiss that out of hand.

"How come did we not develop a monarchy with such a similar context?"

Because historical development is not mechanical. Different class compositions, different party formations, different leadership decisions under different concrete conditions produce different outcomes. Poland was not under siege from the Nazis for decades after the end of ww2 they received a huge amount of funds for rebuilding and integration instead first from the soviets then the EU. Are you really this uneducated?

"Is it like something anti-communist and hostile to its society grew out of a originally communist/maoist party? Would that be exactly the point Im making and youre prettending not to see?"

No. The Khmer Rouge were repudiated by every existing socialist state. They were not a deviation, they were its negation. By your logic, any group that uses socialist language while acting against socialist practice counts as "communist." That renders the term meaningless. The Nazis called themselves socialists too. Are you applying that standard consistently? Maybe you are the type of McCarthyist idiot who would call the Nazis socialist but I hope not that's low even for a polish nationalist like yourself.

"Well our communist party organised a state sanctioned antysemitic pogrom. Go figure."

Nationalist currents existed in Poland long before 1945. The post-war state inherited those contradictions. That the party later criticized and corrected these errors is a feature of socialist self-critique, not a refutation of the system. Twisting this history while ignoring your own country's record of invading Czechoslovakia, occupying Western Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine is ironic.

"Exactly what I was referring to, but thanks for pointing it out, I feel educated comrade."

Then your point collapses. If Vietnam, a socialist state, overthrew the Khmer Rouge, then your example refutes your own claim.

"Is US supporting a fanatical regime to subvert another state anything surprising to you? Why do you assume it would be for me? And what does that have to the original point?"

It has everything to do with the original point. You present political outcomes as if they emerge in a vacuum. They do not. When the leading imperial power funds, arms, and legitimizes opposition movements, that says something about those movements as I said in the original comment if the largest anti-communist force on earth is funding your anti-communist extremists calling them communist is idiotic.

"Mate, thats a living memory of my family, same as millions around as. You have to be a westerner not to know or understand that. It was criticised by the party itself. Thats also propaganda?"

"Living memory" does not replace structural analysis. American families have living memories of WMDs in Iraq too. That does not make the invasion justified.

"Didnt know you trust CIA reports."

I do not trust the CIA. I noted that when an institution dedicated to undermining socialism internally acknowledges facts that contradict its own propaganda, those facts carry weight. Is that really so hard for you to understand.

"Must have been very well, Ive been to China and I dont see any of the language patters of people from the private sector. That doesent sound like state educated english. Also what time is it at your place? Pretty late id say."

Judging someone's background by their English is a lazy trope. I learned English to engage with friends internationally. My village's transformation from poverty to modern infrastructure under collective planning is not a performance for your approval. You racist fuck. Also it was around 8am I was on the train to work not that you know anything about labour.

"Isnt last 25 years more like state capitalism? Again Ive been to china i do understand and apriciate the scale of changes, but it is a market economy."

Markets are a mechanism, not a mode of production. China's system maintains public ownership of the commanding heights, party leadership (reproduced through whole process people's democracy and mass line, there's a reason approval even according to places like Harvard is 90+%) over capital, and development oriented toward social need. The eradication of extreme poverty for hundreds of millions is not a capitalist achievement. It is the result of socialist planning adapting to concrete conditions.

"It has been bordering of fascism since 20 years. My house was stormed by fascist militants attempting to set it on fire, but do tell me more."

So is it possible these fascists in power have colored your view of things just like McCarthyism did for Americans?

"No mate. I was very clear. Not communism. Elites of whatever came out of supposed communism."

Then you have abandoned your original claim. You started with "communism produces unaccountable systems." Now you say the problem is elites after socialism was dismantled. Those are opposite arguments. The latter describes the outcome of externally imposed privatization, not the prior system's logic.

"They did that before knowing and participating in the system change."

They participated under conditions of systemic collapse, foreign pressure, and a coordinated ideological offensive. That is not free choice, that is crisis management under duress.

One last thing: I wasn't going to ask but after your comment about my English, I have to ask, are you a teenager? The arrogance paired with the historical gaps feels like it. But if you are an adult, perhaps it is time to read more than western media and engage with materialist analysis before debating.

If I'm taking the time to refute waves of bullshit using it to help educate anyone interested makes it less annoying.