this post was submitted on 10 Jun 2026
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It's all a matter of perspective (lemmy.ml)
submitted 9 hours ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] imperious_melange@lemmy.zip 3 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Which change are we speaking of?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 23 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

The rise of the global south and socialist countries like China, and the simultaneous and linked decline of imperialism and neocolonialism.

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

The rise of the global south ...

excluding latin america... unfortunately.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Latin America will rise! All of this depends on the death of imperialism and neocolonialism.

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

yes, after the us empire has devolved far enough to let them have autonomy -- about a century or 2 after the rest of the global south

[–] imperious_melange@lemmy.zip -4 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (2 children)

Is China a socialist country? Also are they not imperialists in east Africa? Can you please tell Chinese companies to leave Africa alone and leave the Congo, Kenya, and Tanzania? I would appreciate it. Africa is growing slowly but these local leaders are from the devil for sure. They sell our nation and our resources to whoever will pay them personally. In spite of the corruption things are developing.

[–] axont@hexbear.net 13 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

China is a socialist state. China conducting commerce in Africa doesn't constitute imperialism.

[–] imperious_melange@lemmy.zip -4 points 6 hours ago

You're welcome to come and see for yourself to verify your words in person. I can bring you to places and have you ask the people they employ yourself.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Socialism is, put simply, a society where the working classes have control of the state, and public ownership is the principal, ie rising and dominant, form of ownership. China has therefore been socialist since the victory of the CPC in 1949 and the establishment of the People's Republic of China.

Imperialism is, put simply, a form of international economic extraction of surplus value from one country to the other. It isn't the same as trade between more developed and less developed countries, but in the modern era is a late stage in monopoly capitalism. It's defined by the following characteristics:

-The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.

-The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.

-The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.

-The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.

-The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.

-The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.

As the PRC is a socialist country, it's pretty easy to see that they are not controlled by monopoly finance capital, and that export of capital is not how their economy is driven. We can see the difference and validity of the above explanation in how African countries a part of BRICS and BRI have seen development and growth rather than stagnation and a loss of sovereignty, like they do when under the thumb of imperialist and neocolonial countries like the west.

[–] imperious_melange@lemmy.zip -4 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Does the working class in China have control of the state currently? Or is it the wealthy and powerful in China who control the state? Aren't most high ranking CCP members wealthy and not working class? I think someone has lied to you and you believed it without questions.

Also what business does china have controlling 80% of the mines in Congo while they commit human atrocities? Can you tell them to please stop buying off our politicians and torturing our people.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (3 children)

The working classes do control the state in China. The class breakdown of the NPC is largely proletarian, and anti-corruption campaigns happen regularly under the current Xi Jinping administration. The Hu Jintao era was worse about letting capitalists into the party, but this is a relic of the late 90s and 2000s period.

As for China and extraction operations in the Congo, this is not itself imperialism. For example, the share of "artisanal mining" (a real misnomer, it doesn't refer to mining by sole proprietors but instead to mining by hand in brutal conditions, with little regard for safety) in the DRC has been falling steadily since 2008, going from 40-53% to 9-11% in 2020. This is evidence of development, not super exploitation for superprofits. Here's an excerpt from a good article:

Minnon shows that China has been part of the solution, not of the problem. “China has responded to the DRC’s need to have partners who invest in industrialization,” she writes. Western colonists had bled Congo dry through onerous debt, leaving it “weighed down by a burden that prevented it from developing economically. In 2001 industrial production was at a standstill, mining sites deserted.”

When the DRC turned to the World Bank and IMF for help, they insisted on privatizing the mining sector, laying off thousands of mine workers. Hundreds of mines were sold with “dormant mining titles” to foreign companies – “not to produce but to resell them at the right time” for big profits.

The measures didn’t wipe out the mining industry, but they pushed thousands of laid-off mine workers and their families to fend for themselves as artisanal miners, and then sell the minerals to processing companies. That was the situation described in Cobalt Red.

China’s role has been to bring new, large-scale investment on a new basis: combined financing for industrial mining and public infrastructure – roads, railroads, dams, health and education facilities. The result was “After decades of almost non-existent industrial production, the country became and remains the world’s leading producer of cobalt and, by 2023, became the world’s third largest producer of copper.” The new deal “puts an end to the monopoly of certain Western countries and their large companies whose history shows that this exclusivity has not brought development to the country.”

The arrangement has dramatically reduced the role of artisanal mining. “Since the enormous increase in production in the mining sector in Congo, 80% of mining production is done industrially. Sicomines [China-Congolese Mining Co.] has built the most modern factory in the DRC for processing raw copper.” The same is true for cobalt, replacing artisanal mining with organized, industrial production. Industrial mining is a reversal of artisanal mining.

“Resource-for-Infrastructure (RFI) deals like this all over Africa have helped China foster strong relations with several countries,” writes Halim Nazar of India’s Institute for Chinese Studies .

Western competitors are not happy. “The IMF publicly criticized the DRC for taking on too much debt,” Nazar writes. But it has been a “debt-investment” based on real growth.

I'd like to know what you mean by China committing atrocities and buying off politicians.

[–] Edie@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 hours ago

Sicomines

sicko-yesmines

xicko

[–] dreamkeeper@literature.cafe -4 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (2 children)

When will Chinese people start receiving shares from their employers then? Oh that's right, never, because the tankie Dengists are a bunch of lying capitalist authoritarians.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Dengism isn't real.

This is petty bourgeois fantasy.

You are an idiot.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 4 hours ago

Lol, we basically said the same thing but you did so far more succinctly.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

Since when was socialism "receiving shares from employers?" Socialism is a mode of production and distribution centering public ownership of the means of production, the dominant aspect of China's economy is the public sector with a working class state. This is socialism.

As for your word salad, tankie is just a pejorative for socialists that support existing socialist states, "Dengism" isn't a thing, and all states are "authoritarian," so the important aspect is which class controls the state, not if the state exists or not.

"True socialism" isn't a thing, socialism is not a religious vow. It's a material system where public ownership is the principal aspect and the working classes control the state. Receiving shares from employers is a weird, petty bourgeois notion of socialism utterly disconnected from the scientific socialism of Marx and Engels. Rather than making everyone a worker-owner of the individual firm they work at, socialism leads towards everyone owning all of production and distribution.

[–] imperious_melange@lemmy.zip -3 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (2 children)

You don't know?

The conditions and the treatment of workers is inhumane. You would have to be very isolated or ignorant to not be aware.

The Family of Xi Jinping (General Secretary): Independent journalistic investigations and unclassified intelligence reports document that Xi’s immediate family (siblings, nieces, and nephews) amassed business investments, real estate, and financial holdings valued at over $1 billion. While Xi reportedly urged relatives to divest from some holdings upon taking power in 2012, intelligence audits confirm that his family continues to hold millions in indirect investments

The Family of Wen Jiabao (Former Premier): A landmark forensic investigation revealed that the former Premier's mother, wife, son, and siblings controlled corporate assets and hidden investment vehicles worth at least $2.7 billion.

The Broader Politburo Elite: Systemic wealth tracking indicates that high-ranking party families routinely leverage political clout to secure lucrative stakes in state-dominated sectors, including real estate, heavy infrastructure, finance, and telecommunications

The intersection of wealth and political influence is highly visible in China’s two legislative and advisory bodies: the National People's Congress (NPC) and the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC)

The annual meetings of these bodies are regularly dubbed the "world's wealthiest parliament". Data compiled by the Hurun Research Institute shows that dozens of China's absolute wealthiest billionaires serve concurrently as delegates or political advisers within these state institutions, providing them direct input on economic policy. Research indicates that acquiring an NPC or CPPCC seat serves as a massive accelerator for private sector tycoons looking to protect and boost their initial wealth accumulation.

Top officials technically hold nothing in their own names. Instead, wealth is channeled through a complex system of "white gloves"—trusted business proxies, corporate lawyers, and extended family members who manage multi-million dollar corporate shares and offshore shells

Elites leverage political connections to obtain below-market loans from state banks, exclusive permits for state-backed strategic industries, and lucrative municipal land-use rights.

Data shows that a household with at least one CCP member is, on average, 21% to 24% wealthier than a non-party household, heavily driven by early access to privatized prime real estate.

Are you sure it is the working class who controls the state? Maybe in China the working class are millionaires and billionaires?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I'm aware of the brutality of "artisinal mining," I suggest you reread my comment. I edited it with supporting evidence showing that "artisinal mining" has been falling dramatically as China has gotten involved in developing the DRC's extraction industries, falling to less than 10% from staggering heights of over 50%.

Further, I suspect you just had an LLM spit out "evidence of corruption in the CPC" or other such line. That wouldn't make it inherently wrong, but there's no link to any evidence supporting your statements, and further, class is not the same as income or wealth. The CPC is highly meritocratic, which does result in CPC members having better educational backgrounds, which does have connection to wealth. However, the difference being a measly 25% at most is staggeringly low compared to bourgeois parties that deliberately empower capitalists.

The vast majority of the population supports their government, actually, because they are treated very well. Over 90% of the population supports the CPC. NIRA data's latest polling found China to be one of the more comprehensively democratic countries in the world as seen by its own population:

The PRC is a socialist state, not a state capitalist state like the Republic of Korea, US Empire, or Singapore. China being socialist has nothing to do with the name of the party in control, and everything to do with the mode of production and distribution in China. Rather than a neoliberal paradise, it’s closer to a nightmare for neoliberals. This editorial from The Guardian explains it quite well, actually:

But Xi’s support for mixing private and public ownership structures was purely pragmatic. It had value, he said in another forum, because it would “improve the socialist market economic structure.” Xi’s assessment is echoed by Michael Collins, one of the CIA’s most senior officials for Asia. “The fundamental end of the Communist party of China under Xi Jinping is all the more to control that society politically and economically,” Collins argued earlier this year. “The economy is being viewed, affected and controlled to achieve a political end.”

…

The party’s overarching aim, though, has remained consistent: to ensure that the private sector, and individual entrepreneurs, do not become rival players in the political system. The party wants economic growth, but not at the expense of tolerating any organised alternative centres of power.

…

“[Capitalists] act as if they are being chased by a bear,” wrote Zhang Lin, a Beijing political commentator, in response to these comments. “They are powerless to control the bear, so they are competing to outrun each other to escape the animal.”

Class is a relation to ownership of the means of production, not a total level of wealth. Allegations of corruption and negligence from the west are common, cheap, and hypocritical. The NPC has a handful of capitalists, and instead is dominated by the working classes, as is the CPC itself.

[–] deathmetaldawgy@lemmy.ml 8 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

care to share these “Independent journalistic investigations and unclassified intelligence reports”?

I’m curious as to how we can view unclassified reports. I ain’t never been to college either so idk how legit it is to base your view on one of the oldest countries political system on “unclassified documents”

ALSO no matter how much of the truth is presented to you in provable information, you are pretty much accurately describing how the US and the west function. With China it’s all like “behind the scenes” or whatever so you can just say anything. With the US it’s literally out in the open and you can prove it.