That was the time when all the apps were standard XMPP. It didn't have proper encryption back then. WhatsApp is still XMPP nowadays, but excluding federation and non-standard implementation on Meta servers and so on

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 19 points 8 months ago (2 children)

It didn't have proper encryption back then.

OTR predates all the commercial platforms adopting XMPP, so that's not exactly true.

[–] SapphironZA@sh.itjust.works 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Was OTR a protocol where the server had zero knowledge of the unencrypted content? Or was it basically like SSL?

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 8 points 8 months ago

OTR is E2E, it's the direct predecessor of OMEMO/Signal on which they are both based.

[–] bennypr0fane@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Sure, but now you show me all the clients that supported OTR back then 😜 - or now, for that matter. Besides, OTR doesn't work in multi user chats. OMEMO does, and support for it is still not exactly widespread...

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Most popular clients supported OTR back then.... Pidgin, Gajim, Adium, bitlbee, Psi, you name it.

And that's at a time where absolutely no one did E2E, even SSL wasn't a given.

Yes OTR* doesn't do group chat, but now you're just moving the goalpost.

*There has been a proposal in the works for years and years, but OMEMO stole a lot of it's traction, and the last nail in the coffin was the arrest of Ola Bini in Ecuador as he was one of the main contributors.

You seem to not get that OMEMO is directly based on OTR.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 8 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Fun fact, iMessage is also XMPP based!

[–] lars@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

My brother in Christ do you know what fun means

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Federated XMPP is fun yes, defederated XMPP is, indeed, not fun.

Also I'm no Christ's brother, thanks. Beelzebub maybe.

[–] toastal@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

So is WhatsApp, Zoom, Jitsi

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Had no idea about Zoom!

It's kind of crazy that all these services use it, and on the federated side of things, Signal killed it.

[–] toastal@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

It also powers the communications / presence on many gaming avenues as well like Fortnite, League of Legends, & whatever Nintendo is using for notifications + online status (assuredly a lot more games).

XMPP is old, stable, & massively scalable for industrial applications -- while maintaining decentralization + efficiency & allowing for extensibility like OMEMO encryption which is covering most folk’s chat use cases. Since the XMPP foundation don’t put budget into marketing & hype, a lot of folks weirdly assume it’s dead or not being used. It’s strange to me how folks seem more interested in RCS & Matrix despite their histories/ownership/flaws rather than embracing what is already good.

[–] bennypr0fane@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, XMPP is great and all, but the client side is a big old mess, everything is full of friction and missing support for feature xyz. Have you tried using XMPP on iOS?

[–] toastal@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 months ago

Conversations compliance test has brought most clients into an acceptable base to where most basic chat/audio/video needs are met, so if you are comparing older legacy clients then the experience will be different. The XEP system means everything is optional & can be pitched by making a spec & seeing who uptakes the idea. It also means the bar to create your own server is absoluetly minimal since everything is an extension which means you could build one in a weekend which is great for those learning to code since the barrier to entry is extremely low if Conversations isn’t the goal.

IDGAF about Apple since you have to have a wad just to publish an application on their proprietary store & the EU didn’t do a good enough job so it’s expensive to open alternative stores like F-Droid while also being antagonistic towards sideloading as well as PWAs (not to mention needing to buy their overpriced hardware to build/release applications). Heck, you can’t even publish a GPL-or-similar-licensed app on their store. This is a giant slap in the face to free/ethical software developers & probably why the clients aren’t in a good state; if you aren’t trying to make money, why would you develop in an ecosystem that is entirely hostile for you to develop in?

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Well said! I really miss having a huge roster on XMPP

[–] toastal@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

We can start it up again. Time to nudge in the next Lemmy AMA to allow XMPP addresses alongside Matrix. You’d be surprised how little things like that can nudge adoption & pique curiosity.

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 points 8 months ago

While that's true, I think the people who care have inherent issues with the lack of social network graph anonimity sadly