I prefer good faith discussions please. I love the Fediverse and love what it can be long term. The problem is that parts of the culture want nothing to do with financial aspect. Many are opposed to ads, memberships, sponsorships etc The “small instances” response does nothing to positively contribute to the conversation. There are already massive instances and not everyone wants to self host. People are concerned with larger companies coming to the Fedi but these beliefs will drive everyday users to those instances. People don’t like feeling disposable and when you hamstring admins who then ultimately shut down their instances that’s exactly how people end up feeling. There has to be an ethical way of going about this. So many people were too hard just to be told “too bad” “small instances” I don’t want to end up with a Fediverse ran by corporations because they can provide stability.

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[–] rglullis@communick.news 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I assume people who can run a big instance would notice if they are getting into financial troubles.

There are no "big instances" in the Threadiverse. The largest one (LW) has less than 13k active MAU. These numbers are ridiculously low and offer no real stress to the system. Let's 10x this number and see what starts happening.

We currently have more than 1000 instances on Lemmy.

The top 10 instances account for 74% of MAU. And the bigger instances (LW, Beehaw) are balkanizing the Fediverse: trigger-happy with the defederation buttons, avoiding any instance that can bring "unwanted" activity, etc. Even if other instances start making experiments, they will only be interesting if they happen out in the open.

The current model (whatever it is) seems to work well enough.

Does it? From my perspective, we have a small group of people who are just messing around with things that they can run themselves, a slightly larger group of people who are discontent with reddit and wanted an alternative, but very few people who actually care about an alternative and are willing to put substantial resources to help with development and to accelerate adoption.

Maybe it’s that people are so used to being forced to see ads and pay half their wage for insulin that they cannot imagine nice things exist.

People are not forced to see ads. Ad blockers exist. Which in a way is actually a problem. People managed to enjoy sites and blocking ads, so they got used to the idea that no ads + free access is an universal possibility and the natural state of social networks.

As for price: I've been offering plans for Mastodon access that cost $0.50/month/user on communick. I've had exactly ZERO people on this plan.

My conclusion: it's not the price point. It's just that people don't want to pay for social media.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Have you considered that it isn't the price but the subscription? Many people I know have a real aversion against subscription services with this constant threat of being cut off and arbitrary price increases.

I am pretty sure an up-front single "life-time" price would have more takers, even if such a promise is obviously still subject to many caveats.

[–] rglullis@communick.news 1 points 1 year ago

Subscriptions have gotten a bad rep lately because of companies that try to turn a product (like a car and heated seats) into a "service", but there is nothing inherently wrong/unfair about someone that provides a service that has occurring and constant costs based on usage.

Also, for those that want to have full control over their own identity, they can have their own managed server, which is still a bit expensive but will be made a lot cheaper with the next generation of fediverse services (like takahe and mitra) . Once that gets more mature, users would be able to bring their own domain and a service provider would be a commodity like an email hosting service. In the case where I can port account and my identity to different providers by simply changing a DNS record, the power will be fully in the hands of the people and there will be nothing for them to worry about.

[–] Carighan@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The top 10 instances account for 74% of MAU.

Yes, because even with federation it is inherently advantageous for a user of a social platform to be among the largest pool of people they can identify, to make random stumbling into discussions and groups as likely as possible.

It's a weird thing where we want the federation to provide a network of smallest scale platforms, yet we do this for social media, where the experience is naturally best when it starts with a single giant platform you filter down not an ocean of individual bits you have to glue together.

[–] rglullis@communick.news 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I'm guessing you are not old enough to remember how the internet used to work before Facebook? This idea that walled gardens are somewhat better is a meme that needs to die.

The web itself is the giant platform. Ease of discovery is not an inherent property of centralized networks, it's just that we haven't had built the proper tools to make this work in a decentralized manner.

To make my case: what killed RSS was not that it was difficult to discover new blogs. What killed RSS was that it couldn't be monetized by the publishers when they started using it. What made Twitter so successful was that it let those publishers to have some sense of control over the distribution. Had we properly supported content creators with actual money instead of the promise of eyeballs, the internet would be a much better and healthier place than it is today.

[–] Carighan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Geezus. I'm old enough to remember how the Internet was before the Internet. Sorry. 😅

You however completely missed the point. Social media in its nature benefits from centralized approaches. As a use case. Independent of who operates it. Users have it easier the more central it is. It doesn't need to be walled. Of course not. But it should be centralized.

[–] rglullis@communick.news 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

But it should be centralized.

Again, I really don't see why. Content/Peer discovery can all be made transparent for the user, addressing and distribution as well.

I see the benefit for those building the platforms which in turn make these networks more attractive to users, and I see how the overall cost of the whole system is lower if it is centralized (economies of scale and avoid redundancies), but I'm failing to see how (all else being equal) the users benefit from a centralized system over a distributed one.

The fact that you are on LW and I'm not does not stop us from doing anything on Lemmy that is possibly only on reddit. Why benefit would there be for me to join LW?

[–] Carighan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Like I said above, specifically for the "I want to socialize" use case of social media sites, there's no upside to federation. It makes discovery harder, and a giant portion of what made Reddit so amazing was the random stumbling into things.

And yes, sure, federated systems can be made to more closely emulate such a centralized approach, but that's why I said it that way: A centralized pool of social media content (for a given social media platform) is beneficial to the user, they can randomly stumble into topics and groups, and filter things down to what they desire.

In an ideal federated system, that is in turn exactly how the content would look for the user: They'd not even realize the content isn't all on whatever instance they're on, it's fully transparent. Because that's easier for the user. No matter how low the barrier to finding federated content is, there's still no upside for the user having to take that step and go hunt for federated concept. From the perspective of the user, that is.

It's not a big issue of course, but it does mean that by default, more users flock to where there are already more users.

[–] Corgana@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I agree with your overall sentiment but am I crazy or is RSS more popular than ever?

[–] rglullis@communick.news 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is it? Maybe in absolute numbers it has gone up, but I remember when established newspapers and journalists would write on their blog and have full-text feeds, while nowadays everything seems to be on substack/medium and the RSS feeds just puts out a link to the gated content.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago

If you include podcasts, which are delivered via RSS by definition, undoubtedly RSS is more popular than ever.

It's a little disingenuous to do that though, so in this context we probably shouldn't count it.