Yeah, I've heard about the white terror. This does not justify people who supposedly wanted a better world. I am quite sure that now amount of torture in western countries is negligible when compared with China and North Korea, and mostly by intrinsic flaws of e.g. police than political causes. And yes, I've heard about exceptions as Guantanamo or Pinoshit. Actually Pinoshit and Franco should not be counted as nominal western mindset, since they are authoritarian fascist piece of shits. I despise all authoritarian despots equally, no matter fascist Franco or "communist" Stalin.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I am quite sure that now amount of torture in western countries is negligible when compared with China and North Korea

This sounds like western chauvinism. Hoe can you be sure? The US has soo many blacksites, hell even local PDs have them.

Guantanamo or Pinoshit. Actually Pinoshit and Franco should not be counted as nominal western mindset, since they are authoritarian fascist piece of shits.

Pinochet was straight up supported by the west until it was too politically inconvenient, but by that time he'd already done his job of eradicating the left. Franco wouldn't have won if it wasn't for Britain, France, etc, enforcing "no arms and troops shipments" for the USSR but not for Italy and Germany. And they also weren't willing to accept Spanish republican gold.

I despise all authoritarian despots equally, no matter fascist Franco or “communist” Stalin.

Hmm. One of these people was a dictator. The other was democratically elected and lead the industrialization of a society that allowed it to defeat the industrial superpower that was Germany and end the holocaust.

[–] 33550336@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

This sounds like western chauvinism. Hoe can you be sure?

And how can you be sure? Given nontransparent smokescreen of all red imperialist countries like USSR, China and North Korea?

The other was democratically elected

Oh yes, USSR, the famous standard of democracy /s

end the holocaust

*replace it with the gulag system

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

And how can you be sure? Given nontransparent smokescreen of all red imperialist countries like USSR, China and North Korea?

You call them imperialist without having an understanding of imperialism.

For example, explain China increasing in manufacturing output as a percent of their economy as they enter and push into the middle income bracket?

Also, how the hell is the DPRK imperialist? The only place they've invaded was a US military dictatorship in the same country that they're in, while the US dictatorship was slaughtering 10s of thousands of protestors.

Oh yes, USSR, the famous standard of democracy /s

Yes. If you can't explain how the soviet councils were layered and how elections were carried out then don't pretend like you can argue about this in an informed way.

China uses a similar system and has a 95 percent approval rate, according to Harvard Surveys.

*replace it with the gulag system

This is holocaust trivialization. The gulags were not meant to kill people, and the mortality rate in them reflects this.

[–] 33550336@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

For example, explain China increasing in manufacturing output as a percent of their economy as they enter and push into the middle income bracket?

Exploiting cheap workers in inhumane conditions, resembling 19th century capitalism. Exactly what communism was supposed to end. China is getting robotized somewhat, since its society ages dramatically, but they want to keep polluting the world with cheap throwaways.

Also, how the hell is the DPRK imperialist?

DPRK constantly threaten South Korea and Japan. Apart the famous missile launches, it performs abductions, drug smuggling, marine poaching, and spying. And we have cyber attacks as well. The country is too shitty to invade another country full scale, but it does what it can do to be a bully, officially uses imperialist rhetorics and throw threats.

If you can’t explain how the soviet councils were layered and how elections were carried out then don’t pretend like you can argue about this in an informed way.

The elections were carried out in such a way, that an average worker had no chance to vote for a social demoratic party, anarchist party, or liberal democratic party. They even killed their communist opposition, Mensheviks. There is no democracy with a single party system, don't be ridiculous.

China uses a similar system

And is a similar authoritarian regime.

This is holocaust trivialization. The gulags were not meant to kill people, and the mortality rate in them reflects this.

Setting aside manufactured famine in Ukraine and genocides like Katyn, very cautious estimates says that around 30 millions of people were victims of gulag, with lethal 2,7 million victims. This is probably massive underestimation, since many of gulag documents were destroyed in 2014. But hey, the mortality rate was smaller than in Nazi death camps, great job USSR! /s

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Exploiting cheap workers in inhumane conditions, resembling 19th century capitalism. Exactly what communism was supposed to end. China is getting robotized somewhat, since its society ages dramatically, but they want to keep polluting the world with cheap throwaways.

Taking everything you said as true, that isn't imperialist though. Imperialism is a specific thing, have you read any academic writings on imperialism?

DPRK constantly threaten South Korea and Japan. Apart the famous missile launches, it performs abductions, drug smuggling, marine poaching, and spying. And we have cyber attacks as well. The country is too shitty to invade another country full scale, but it does what it can do to be a bully, officially uses imperialist rhetorics and throw threats.

Taking everything you say is true, that also isn't imperialism

The elections were carried out in such a way, that an average worker had no chance to vote for a social demoratic party, anarchist party, or liberal democratic party. They even killed their communist opposition, Mensheviks. There is no democracy with a single party system, don’t be ridiculous.

Okay, see my original point about not being informed.

Setting aside manufactured famine in Ukraine and genocides like Katyn, very cautious estimates says that around 30 millions of people were victims of gulag, with lethal 2,7 million victims. This is probably massive underestimation, since many of gulag documents were destroyed in 2014. But hey, the mortality rate was smaller than in Nazi death camps, great job USSR! /s

Your estimate should be 1.7 million, Nazis aren't people remember?