this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2024
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Silverblue vs uBlue (lemmy.world)
submitted 5 months ago by ozymandias117@lemmy.world to c/linux@lemmy.ml
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I’m considering trying out an immutable distro after using Tumbleweed for the last 6 years.

The two major options for me seem to be Fedora Kinoite or uBlue Aurora-dx

My understanding is that universal-blue is a downstream of Fedora Atomic

So, the points in favor of Kinoite is sticking closer to upstream, however it seems like I would need to layer quite a few packages. My understanding is that this is discouraged in an rpm-ostree setup, particularly due to update time and possible mismatches with RPMFusion

uBlue Aurora-dx seems to include a lot of the additional support I’d need - ROCm, distrobox, virt-manager, libratbag, media codecs, etc. however I’m unclear how mature the project is and whether it will be updated in a timely manner long term

I’m curious what the community thinks between the two as a viable option

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[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

uBlue f**ed up their site a while ago, they had a huge list of images.

You can just use their kinoite-main image, which is what I do. It has Distrobox, homebrew and a few more things.

Here is an archived site

Use kinoite-main:latest and you will even get automatic version upgrades without a problem.

You can still rebase, you know? I tried Aurora and it was not for me, back on normal Kinoite.

But for sure it is a bit annoying to layer. But no issue. I layer 20 packages or so, 300 with dependencies, and all is fine.

I dont know about ROCM, their hardware enablement to my knowledge is just about NVIDIA, Asus and other proprietary stuff.

[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The developer image, dx, includes rocm-hip and rocm-opencl:

https://github.com/ublue-os/bluefin/blob/main/packages.json

The packages under “dx” are the main reason I’m considering it over stock Fedora

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Interesting.

Give it a shot, Aurora is fine. May have some packages you dont need, but it is fine.

They remove Firefox for whatever reason, which makes no sense. The Librewolf and Firefox Flatpaks are probably okay, the Librewolf RPM is completely broken

[–] quarterlife@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

We remove Firefox because having it on the image is a security hazard. You want your browser to update more often than your operating system.

We prefer the flatpak, but if for some reason you need the RPM I would suggest installing it with distrobox.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

a security hazard.

Okay?

You want your browser to update more often than your operating system.

Then why do you base on Fedora and have daily auto updates by default?

I shutdown my laptop every day and update every day. That is fine for me.

Fedora Firefox has some hardening flags that official Firefoxn has not. It is built for Fedora and works really really good.

I did benchmarks some time ago and it is also actually very performant.

Flatpak Firefox does not have the ability to create user namespaces for tab process isolation. This is due to all Flatpaks using the same badness-enumerating seccomp filter, there is no additional hardening possible and they still block userns creation.

Firefox can still isolate tabs via seccomp-bpf but this means it has 1 of its 2 security barriers removed when using a flatpak.

Seeing browsers as an app, it is good to have additional security from the browser to the OS, by sandboxing via flatpak.

But seeing the browser as a platform, passwords, bookmarks, credit card details etc may all be stored in there and a sandbox escape not necessary to steal peoples stuff.

Removing Firefox prevents people from reinstalling it (due to the rpm-ostree bug), and apart from the tarball (which has no desktop integration and is some random binary ran from some random location, likely without SELinux protection (unconfined users)) it is the best browser on Fedora.

installing it with distrobox.

This makes no real sense.

Pro

  • it can update separately from the OS
  • it works even with the current rpm-ostree bug
  • it is the Fedora RPM
  • it is kinda isolated from the root OS

Con

  • updates are not automatic and need to be configured
  • not sure if it has access to user namespace creation because it already runs in a user namespace container
  • it adds additional boot time and constant RAM usage due to having a container
  • distrobox does not allow Fedora DNF system upgrades so you need to nuke it and reinstall on a version change (at least every 13 months)

Using the tarball and placing it in /var/usrlocal/bin/ may be better. But still cumbersome.

The solution, even if you want to remove it, is having these issues solved, or this rpm-ostree bug fixed.

[–] quarterlife@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Distrobox updates automatically on Bluefin and Bazzite.

In this case we disagree with Fedora, Atomic Fedora should not have Firefox in image. It does not matter to us what they do, we explicitly remove it.

If you like the way Fedora builds their Firefox RPM, that's all the more reason for you to use a fedora distrobox.

I shutdown my laptop every day and update every day. That is fine for me.

Irrelevant. Not everybody does. Some people pin an old image due to a bug and sit on a far older image. If you had it your way, they'd be using a week or month old build of Firefox -- that's unacceptable.

Removing Firefox prevents people from reinstalling it

Good. I can promise you if that gets fixed and I have a way to continue to prevent it, I will.

Flatpak Firefox does not have the ability to create user namespaces for tab process isolation. This is due to all Flatpaks using the same badness-enumerating seccomp filter, there is no additional hardening possible and they still block userns creation.

This is an issue for Mozilla. They are happy enough with the state of the Flatpak to not only verify it, but list it on their website. Unless you've got a CVE for the Flatpak version of Firefox I don't see any point in even engaging with this argument.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Distrobox updates automatically

True, forgot that you use topgrade

Atomic Fedora should not have Firefox in image

There are many relevant issues and it is not a clear choice.

Irrelevant. Not everybody does.

Yeah and nobody knows about user namespaces or seccomp filters. This is about at least 2 user groups and one is not necessarily more important than another.

It is again not a clear choice.

a way to continue to prevent it, I will.

* in your opinionated images, I hope.

You start to sound like a GrapheneOS dev. It makes no sense to prevent users from reinstalling removed packages.

Which btw also include the Fedora Flathub repository.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You also didnt answer to the security issue of removing an entire sandboxing layer, or to the point about not being able to upgrade Distroboxes.

Do you solve the second problem by building a latest distrobox container following the uBlue releases?

[–] quarterlife@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

We solve this problem by treating distroboxes as cattle and not as pets. Blow them away at any time.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

So what happens to the apps installed?

And what about running different distros in the same homedir, and dotfile clashes?

[–] j0rge@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Use the distrobox assemble command, that'll let you have an ini file with all the stuff you want and then when the assemble command runs it'll remake the entire thing. Then just toss the assemble in cron and you'll always have a fresh container with your exact setup.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago

Interesting, never used that, thanks!

[–] quarterlife@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Which btw also include the Fedora Flathub repository.

We no longer touch the repos as Fedora is now in agreement with using Flathub.

You start to sound like a GrapheneOS dev. It makes no sense to prevent users from reinstalling removed packages.

It's for user security. I have no interest in debating this decision, my reasons are outlined.

[–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago

It's for user security.

As said, this has pros and cons. I will try the Distrobox method though.