Won't be citing Wikipedia here, western Wikipedia sadly has an anti-soviet bias due to the literature available in the west as a consequence of anti-communism.

While it's definitely true wikipedia has biased pages around the Russian Revolution, specifically around not showing the proper criticisms of the anarchists like Mahkno during that period, however I believe it's still the best (free and accessible) source available for the "Steel manned" criticism of the Bolsheviks during the revolution. If I was criticizing the actions of the anarchists or mensheviks I would definitely have to pull from actual books however.

I know the coup attempt took place before October. But that doesn't point you to other possible coup attempts? You don't see a coup fail and go "oh thank god that's over" and keep doing the same, right?

No of course not, but it showed that the socialist parties had the ability to work together to counter the reactionary threat when needed. In my humble opinion as a college student I believe the Russian socialists would've been better off to keep cooperating with eachother against the Kadets and Whites rather than succumbing to infighting. However it's questionable whether the mensheviks or Right-SR's would have done so, but the anarchists, and Left SR's definitely would have.

It's not me saying that. There were terrorist attempts on Lenin, and even some successful ones against prominent Bolsheviks.

I'm aware of the assassination attempts on Lenin and other bolsheviks, but I don't think that should've condemned the entirety of the other socialist parties to being purged, especially since I've never seen evidence of these assassination attempts being planned by the leadership of any of the socialist parties.

Bolsheviks were right! You CAN establish socialism without a previous phase of capitalism. In the USSR, class relations disappeared, and the exploitation was no more.

I don't think that's exactly what happened, I'd say it was far more than the class relations changed from lord and peasant to party official and worker, though that's my Trotskyist sympathies and it's a topic that's been well debated and I'm sure you're aware of that.

Saying that they were conveyors for instructions from the top down is nonsensical, especially seeing how union membership amounted to tens of millions of workers while being totally voluntary.

While the unions functioned very much like you say as the means through which the government gave certain benefits such as vacations at the sanitariums, they also had the ability to punish workers for non-loyalty and for stepping outside of party line, the ability for the party to influence the union and not the other way around is what I have problems with. And while technically being voluntary, it's hard to measure how much participation in any organization is voluntary in an authoritarian environment like the Stalin and Brezhnev periods of the USSR.

"Eventually"? Really? Again, you're just spouting anti-communist propaganda. You can complain about repression but saying that the USSR "eventually" instituted progressive welfare is crazy, it's one of the earliest things the USSR did.

I said eventually because while the subsidies and reforms put in place during War Communism did help the urban class, they also lead to shortages of food in the countryside. In my opinion it's only later after the end if War Communism and the beginning of the NEP that true welfare reforms were put in place, not just redistributory policies that redistributed resources from the rural to urban class. (I'm aware that some of the redistributions came from Kulaks and not peasants, however grain seizures did not happen only to Kulaks)

There's no exploitation, so there's nothing to concede.

That was the party line, but my Trotsky/Bernstein/Luxemburg inspired self would probably say otherwise.

So little power that they could kickstart a 2-year-long civil war in which many Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries joined them, and in which more than a million and a half people died on the Bolshevik side. I'm sure independent unions controlling the industry separately would have fought much better against the White armies.

Again that civil war started only after the revolution in October, had the socialists presented a more united front then I doubt the Tsarists would've had the opening to grab political control, they were vastly less popular than the Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, and SRs. And while the need for a strong central plan during the war is justification for the War Communism, but not for the lack of control the workers and unions had on planning after the war during the NEP period and after for the rest of Soviet history.

Blaming the russian civil war on Bolsheviks instead of the actual, literal monarchic fascists that wanted to restore the Russian Empire.

Had the Black Hundreds started the conflict I would completely agree with you. But in my view, the widespread violence/conflict didn't actually start until after the start of violence between socialists in October. I only blame the bolsheviks for starting the conflict, I blame the mensheviks for working with people like Wrangel, Denikin, and the other white officers for perpetuating it and not bringing it to a quick close or trying to find agreement with the bolsheviks. But I don't think the Mensheviks/Right SR's would've ever stooped to working with people like Wrangel had the bolsheviks not started hostilities.

We're talking of the first Socialist experiment ever.

I'm extremely sympathetic to this argument, however my only problem is that the socialists of that time were doing exactly what socialists today do, fighting and hating eachothing more than they fought the capitalists. After the 1917 election effectively, the entire government was controlled by socialists, the Kadets and Whites would've only had whatever power the socialists let them. I feel like if I was participating in the first socialist revolution I would put much more care into ensuring the movement as a whole stayed united and in power, instead of one particular section of it, however here I am engaging in leftist infighting so who knows.

That doesn't discredit the entire revolution, its ideals, and its achievements, at least it doesn't to me, whereas it clearly does for anti-communists like you.

I don't think it discredits the revolution actually, hence me putting effort into learning about Soviet history post-revolution as well. I do however think it discredits some of the ideals of Leninism, just because of how easy they were for Stalin to abuse. Primarily the concept of the Vanguard party meant that the Bolsheviks could justify to themselves the repression of other socialists movements and in my view it had an inherently patriarchal view of the working class needing to be "guided" by a party instead of the party being guided by the working class. In my view the ban on factionalism also allowed whatever faction was in power to crush any competition and basically allowed it to not have to listen to the working class. If a broad swath of the population began to support Trotsky or any other faction leader, the ruling faction could simply say that those Trotskyists were counter-revolutionary and repress them.

which ironically led to the demise of the country once the higher ups decided it was time to "liberalize" the economy and the politics, aka Glasnost and Perestroika. But refusing to do material analysis of the circumstances, and reducing everything to "Lenin bad", is counterproductive.

The Gorbachev period is actually why I blame Lenin. In my view Gorbachev was just the leader of one of the two major factions of the USSR during that time. But in my view, because of the ban on factions that started with Lenin, and the collection of power around the Politburo that started with Lenin, the internal political conflicts of the party were decided more by who had connections and political maneuvering abilities far more than who the working class preferred. Had the working class been able to vote specifically for which faction they wanted more in the Gorbachev era and before, I don't think the scheming that lead to the August Coup and dissolution of the union by the Liberals ever would've happened.

Funnily enough, nobody on the left talks or complains about the excesses of violence carried out by the antifascist side during the civil war, such as burning churches with priests alive inside, or raping nuns, or execution of fascist prisoners, or even infighting among the leftist parties. You know why? Because it failed, and failed leftist movements aren't criticised but idealised by people like you.

I do actually criticize the infighting between liberals, anarchists, and leninists during the Spanish Civil War, however it's a topic that doesn't come up often in American political discourse so I don't often get the chance to. I've read far less about the Spanish War than the Russian one, however from what I've read the fighting between the Leninists and Anarchists and the schemes of the Liberals directly contributed to their loss. I don't think the Leninists seizing power over the socialist movement in Spain would've exact been the answer, with it likely leading to infighting within the left like during the Russian war, I think the answer probably would've been deeper negotiation and agreement between socialists for a more united Popular Front, however you'd know more than me on if that was feasible.

Can I ask where you're majoring in Soviet history? I'm interested.

University of Chapel Hill at North Carolina, unfortunately the best I can afford at the moment for a secondary major.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Great discussion, very informative. Thanks