this post was submitted on 24 Jul 2024
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Fuck Hyprland, its developers, and its asshole community. Context: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html
The bread and butter for anyone wanting a TLDR:
Oh wow. That community is just hateful
And now in the r/linux thread about these news people are defending Vaxry, misrepresenting what the ban was about, and hating FDO.
Indicatively, this blatantly wrong comment chain is upvoted:
But this is downvoted and has replies telling them they're wrong:
I whole-heartedly agree with this one and I am genuinely not surprised about the behaviour of Vaxry.
To give some context around this, ThatOneCalculator (aka Kainoa, the person behind Firefish) and I maintained the AUR package for hyprland-git back in 2022. When I initially made the AUR package file, it wasn't great (and there were a lot of points to improve these packages) but it worked mostly. Of course there were edge cases where building broke, especially this was my first bigger AUR package to maintain. With it being a -git package in the AUR, breakage is to be expected.
Fast forward about a month, a month and a half. Hyprland rolled out some big changes which caused some build errors. But because my personal life got in the way, Kainoa got sick (IIRC) and I had troubles getting the build scripts working again, so it took a few days to get this resolved.
Vaxry came complaining to comment section of the AUR package "when are you gonna get of your lazy ass and fix this shit" (or something similar to that meaning, I can't find the original comment anymore). After that, I promptly disowned the package and let Vaxry handle it himself.
Because fuck that shit, as package maintainer, I refused to be treated like this. If you think it takes too long, sure, fine, ask if I need help, offer support, anything. But just don't be an asshole towards people, that offer your software to a wider audience.
Vaxry (head honcho of hyprland) responds here to Drew's referenced shoutout. Sharing for completeness sake. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
And his response to the FreeDesktop stuff. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-fdo-and-redhat
It seems like the guy is being genuine here. Or was that pure PR?
He is some sort of a sociopath. I remember having the same feelings reading his Blogposts. But after rethinking and checking the facts it came to me how awful his own reaction was.
If you use an infrastructure as the project did, the host is allowed to define rules. In his reaction everything was framed like she as a woman would just fire against his project because of she likes to have power. The mailing list told a totally different story. After I realised his framing was again hateful and misleading, I stepped away from the project and till now all news about that.
The development of a dedicated backend is most probably because of technical reasons since wlroots caused some problems, though.
Damn, had no idea about this.
Well I was going to try Hyprland this weekend, but I think instead I will very much not do that.
I hope someone forks it from a good commit just before they replaced wlroots. I don’t know the specifics of compositor code at all, but I bet It’s going to cost them quite a bit of velocity to maintain their replacement.
Any recommendations for a Hyprland refugee? Thinking of trying out niri...
After this news I switched to using KDE with Karousel, an animation plugin, and a rounded corners plugin (kwin scripts).
I also use a command runner plasmoid to somewhat replicate waybar from shell scripts.
I've been eyeing https://codeberg.org/river/river
That looks awesome! Having used fvwm, I'm a fan of the scrollable desktop
I've been using swayfx, a fork of Sway with a little more eye candy.
River: https://codeberg.org/river/river
I can only recommend niri!
I like niri, but I'll be damned if I can get any kind of stability out of it. I'll have myself a flawless time at home testing, but as soon as my laptop enters University Grounds it stops launching apps, or crashes, or whatever else.
Right now I'm using Gnome/PaperWM since Infinite horizontal has changed my workflow so dramatically, and Gnome is more stable for me.
I'd recommend river to anyone looking for an alternative wayland dynamic tiling wm.
I'm SO excited for river 0.4.0 as it will bring a massive architectural change which will basically allow people to build their own Window Manager on top of River. Currently, River is a Wayland Compositor with an extensible Layout Generator Process support via a custom protocol. This change will essentially make River into a hyper-extensible Window manager building system which will make it immensely powerful.
While I use river as daily driver and am very happy with it, I feel people who like Hyprland will find river to be rather limited and barren in terms of looks and availability of plugins.
I'd be happy to find an alternative to Hyprland, but it was the first tiling manager that really clicked for me and (before the community issues came to light) I spent quite some time getting it set to the way I like it. I'd love for a competent fork or similar but it is well beyond my skill level to do that.
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Hyprland is incredible and hopefully there won’t be any more trouble like this
Because Vaxry didn't like the public backlash, not because he had any moral problems with the conduct. In fact, he doesn't mind genocide:
I think he was trying to have a philosophical point here but took the headass approach to it.
20 years ish old, living in Poland, and perma online does things to a man. Weird though to have a take like that when Polish people in particular were significant victims in Auschwitz
To his point: if not "discuss", what is the correct approach against fascism? war and murder? dismiss it, try to "cancel it" without giving any arguments so it can continue to fester on its own and keep growing in opposition?
To me, fascism is a stupid position that doesn't make much sense, to the point that it falls on itself the moment you "discuss" it.
I would have expected that it would be the fascists the ones unable/unwilling to discuss their position, since it's the least rational one. So it's certainly very jarring whenever I hear people jumping to defend against fascism while at the same time stopping in their tracks when it comes to discussing it. Even if those unable to reason might not be convinced by our arguments, anyone with reason would. Rejecting discussion does a disservice, because it does put off those willing to listen and strengthens those who didn't really want an argument anyway.
Like flat-earthers, they should be challenged with reason, with discussion. Not dismissed as if it were true that there's a huge conspiracy against them. Whether they listen or not to that reason, dehumanizing them and rejecting civil and rational discourse would play in favor of their movement.
Stating "genocide is bad" should NOT be a statement of faith. Faith is the shakiest of the grounds, if we are unable to articulate the specific reasons that make genocide be bad, then we are condemned to see it repeat itself. So, I'd argue it's for the sake of the victims in Auschwitz that antifascism should not be turned into a religion, but into a solid and rational position that's not distorted nor used willy-nilly.
Aw, man. I think Vaxry's got entrapped here.
He is saying that if nothing can sway you from an opinion, then it is a belief, including being 100% opposed to genocide.
(Please note: I don't side with genocide!!! But I understand his point. Read on.)
I think he's the positions armchair arguing type, not necessarily the evil type.
I can totally see him say "If a group of people's solely reason to exist is to exterminate the rest of the human race, if that's all they think about, if all they do is to accomplish that - induce terror, kill babies, spew propaganda, castrate humans of all races; then it's safe to say that that group of people should not exist and it should be exterminated."
That's an extremely wild scenario, of course! But I think that's what this guy is saying. We may find genocide in general heinous, but he won't say that all genocides are bad because of thought examples like the above one.
Then the other party takes that personally, and extrapolates that Vaxry is in favor of exterminating all trans people - something he didn't say or mean.
My two cents.
That discussion didn't come out of the blue, though. It was in the aftermath of behavior on his Discord where his position was "I didn't say the things and I can't moderate". Also, as a person of Polish descent who follows Polish politics probably a bit closer than the average person, I see a pattern of PiS party ideology / common behavior by PiS supporters of being at the far right and the claiming ignorance when their behavior leads to bad press.
Right, but the original mail from FDO basically said "we know about these examples of bad behavior, we want to notify you that they are definitely unacceptable and we expect to never see something like it again". And Vaxry had a meltdown over that. Among other things, he doesn't get why he should be held accountable for behaviors outside FDO. He has also rejected and commented negatively on the idea of any code of conduct at all for his project. Vaxry is making it as clear as possible that he will make zero commitment to oppose toxicity in his community and people took his word for it. The idea that he was punished solely for a couple of comments that happened years ago and are definitely "fixed" is Vaxry's own misleading interpretation.
I also frequent the discord server often for help with configuring, I have not seen/experienced any of this hatred talked about so much. The worst I've seen is bluntness in delivering a solution or just being ignored because I someone didn't RTFM.
Hyprland is a wonderful piece of technology and I hope it continues to persist.
Damn. I only discovered this project a few weeks ago and just started building a config.
Time to
yay -Rcs hyprland.Damn why does all the software I want to use end up being developed by bigoted assholes. First nix now this.
My opinion: let's separate the software and the people making it. If it's great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.
EDIT: I know that FOSS heavily relies on community but also that's the point. I don't see how toxic comminity can progress further while more open minded and kind fork will be a better choice of the same software base.
What if you need to file a bug? What if you have a question on the config that's not easily answered by the docs? If you never, ever find bugs and never, ever have questions, then sure, separate the two. There are genuinely people like that, but they're not common. If you're one of them, then I'm genuinely glad for you.
My opinion is this: You use software. You don't use people, but you sure as hell rely on them.
Yeah that's a better opinion than mine.
Which is why you should only care about the personal opinion of those people when it actually relates to that reliability.
I don't care whether Linus Torvalds likes disrespecting whichever company or people he might want to give the middle finger to, or throw rants in the mailing list or mastodon to attack any particular individual, so long as he continues doing a good job maintaining the kernel and accepting contributions from those same people when they provide quality code, regardless of whatever feelings he might have about whatever opinions they might hold.
You rely on the performance of the software, the clarity of the docs, the efficiency of their bug tracking... but the opinions of the people running those things don't matter so long as they keep being reliable.
Since this change is entirely a result of the bad behavior of the maintainer and would not have happened otherwise, this a perfect example of why we fundamentally cannot separate the work from the people who make it.
Even if you do not agree with the social backlash this person is getting, that backlash has real effects on the work.
I, for one, no longer trust that hyprland will remain a well-maintained piece of software given that the maintainer would rather increase their maintenance burden and diverge from using common tools instead of cooperating with the community.
Yeah the "organisation" stuff behind... To be honest anything can show negative or positive effects on the end product. I see it in my job, college and even the Unity or CrowdStrike can make such examples.
Please note that many users of FOSS are also developers or contributors. Who wants to report a bug or send a patch if the community is worse?
"Let's remove the social element of our social movement"
Great so what's left at that point, the free value FOSS provides to corporations?
Having a tool that can be used greatly without restrictions without any additional bullshit. For me that's FOSS but I know that when comes to maturity and development community is the main component of great end product.
I didn't write about its user base, I wrote about its community – the cesspool that engages among each other. That said, the moment someone opens a bug report, there's a real chance that person gets harassed.
The thing about Foss is that it's typically community oriented. You are not only able to contribute and participate, but you're invited to do so.
And if you're an asshole and your community is toxic then who cares if your code is good? There are other projects I'd rather participate in. Cuz you're not that good.
Would be great, but some people are really strange. Especially bad if you have to let go of the work of some people, because you cant do it on your own.