France never experienced communism?
this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2023
3 points (100.0% liked)
Memes
45704 readers
1203 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
The photo of the USA Lenin statue isn't accurate. It resides in the Fremont neighborhood in Seattle, where it frequently has its hands and body splashed with red paint to represent the blood on Lenin's hands.
Just do an image search for it or check it out on google maps streetview.
Ackshully...
Lenin himself wasn't the problem and the Statures for him are usually for being a Revolutionary and removing the Tzar.
Stalin was the actual problem.
Lenin was a counterrevolutionary that brutally suppressed any dissent and directly placed Stalin (being well aware of what a person he was) in a position that would make his later takeover possible.
Lenin did not place Stalin, stalin took over. Other than that, yes.
Lenin placed Stalin as an enforcer to do the dirty stuff for him. It would be very naive to assume Lenin didn't know the risk involved of putting a former mob gangster in such a position.
Yup, countries run by fascists hate communism.
Russia seems fine with it though
But I'm sure it's because it's aCkhUaLly fAscIsT
So are we discussing countries were fascists live in or run by fascists? Because Russia is 100% the latter
You used so many words to tell us you don't know what fascism is. Another victim of western education system.
More like, another victim of living next to Russia
Plenty of people live next to Russia just fine last I checked.
Check in Ukraine
Ah Ukraine that's full of actual fascists who did a coup in 2014, and are now getting used by the west in a proxy war to weaken Russia as Loyd Austin so honestly admitted. Maybe the lesson there is not to let your country be used as a western proxy.
Guess that makes me an actual fascist for trying to live my life not genocided by neighbouring country
You're showing statues of Lenin in countries in which the Dictatorship of the Proletariat failed to cede power to the working class and establish a socialist economic structure.
When Lenin took power, Russia had nothing. It was in the middle of WW1, there were regular famines, almost everyone was illiterate, and it was in no condition to establish a socialist economic plan. So, Lenin created a temporary economic model called The Dictatorship of the Proletariat. This is a centrally planned economy designed to rapidly develop infrastructure and industry in a country that has none. Lenin was already ceding power to the worker's councils when he died. Stalin decided he liked The Dictatorship of the Proletariat and did not cede power back to the worker's councils.
Those countries never experienced Communism. They never even experienced socialism. They destroyed those statues because they hated The Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Living in a system designed for a short temporary economic boom for decades is no fun.
So-called "dictatorship of proletariat" was simply a terror. Lots of philosophers and religious elite was killed just because they weren't compatible with communist ideology. Rich peasants who didn't even use others labor were either robbed or killed. Peasants lost their land and had to work for the country. People got killed just because some anonyms told they did something bad. I know this because it happened to my ancestors. My grand-grandfather lost his house, communists left only one room for his family. His friends, all good people, dissapeared. His daughters never played with neighbor's kids because of fear. My other grand-grandfather lost land and two horses. His brother was killed for not agreeing to give away his house. And my another grand-grandfather was killed because an anonymous letter. He was communist and thought he was safe as he did nothing wrong. His kids couldn't get education because they were "children of the enemy of the people". Much later my grandfather got a paper concluding that execution of his father was a mistake. It was horrible time, and lots of people thought the ones who were killed were "pests" or "enemies of the people", so killing them was good and beneficial for the society.
countries in which the Dictatorship of the Proletariat failed to cede power to the working class and establish a socialist economic structure
Oh, so like every single other place that tried to implement that deranged system? Thank you for this very important distinction.
What about all these capitalist places that fell into fascism? What about the successful capitalist states that are currently falling into fascism?
What about them? The choices here are not "what we have now" vs "trust the people that want to try communism again"
My point is about the flawed argument : "communism is bad because the attempts have failed". Well, there are more capitalist attempts that failed than communist ones, so the argument doesn't hold.
My argument is not "look how many attempts have failed" but "look, of all of these many attempts, every single one has turned into a kafkaesque nightmare". At this point it is not even clear that "successful communism" is something that can exist in our world
On the other hand, while many (depending on your perspective you might even say most) capitalist systems fail, there are absolutely some that work ok. Of course nothing is perfect in the real world. But the life of say a danish person is not only materially well off, but also free and full of dignity, which was true of none of the experiments in communism
I'm pretty sure many Chinese are well off, free and full of dignity.
It's also easier to be a successful country when you're not under ambargo just because you're not sold to capitalist companies. Did the US left even one communist country live normally?
But more importantly, how many successful capitalist countries, today, aren't going fascist at full speed?
It's so very capitalist to look at failed attempts to escape capitalism which were sabotaged by capitalists as indication that the need to rebel is the problem.
Failing to account for greed for power some people have is in itself a fatal flaw, to be honest. Anyone who advocates for the exact same actions and glorifies the USSR knows what they are doing, they're hoping to come out on top after their desired revolution. Unfortunately, there are plenty of those kinds of people on this platform...
Are Leftists advocating for the exact same actions as the USSR, or are Capitalists gaslighting the ignorant into believing they are?
No, I'm just saying tankie infestations are so widespread and loud that they have a decent amount of leverage on what the average person thinks of communism, and tankie opposing leftists are either not loud enough, or not numerous enough.
Out of curiosity, how do you think governments in large capitalist economies (such as the US) properly account for greed for power and keep it in check? Do you think they are doing a good job on that front?
Poorly, but not worse than a dictatorship(such as the USSR).
What's your point?
That's objectively false. USSR managed to provide everyone with food, housing, healthcare, education, and jobs. Nobody worried about losing their job and ending up on the street or that they wouldn't be able to retire in dignity. People had reasonable work hours and enjoyed over 20 days vacation. None of the capitalist regimes around today are able to achieve these things.
"USSR managed to provide everyone with food, housing, healthcare, education, and jobs"
the victims of the holodomor would like a word
You might want to turn that incredibly critical eye you've got for communism back in on capitalism, that's all.
I... am?
What is this, I am against dictatorial abominations, so that means I am in favor of capitalist abuse? I am literally saying that opposition to capitalism is shooting itself in the foot by tolerating the existence of authoritarian "communists".
Unless you're an actual tankie, your words towards me make no sense.
Misunderstanding on my end then, I made some clearly unfair assumptions. I agree with you there and apologize for the mischaracterization.
failed attempts
They didn't fail. I mean you can criticize the ussr, but it was not capitalist
which were sabotaged by capitalists
What a weird thing to say. The USSR had sovereign control over the largest country in the world by far + a lot of allies. The capitalists can't even get rid of north Korea. Its not the capitalists, the system is just shit
the need to rebel is the problem
I mean its fine to rebel, but if your goal is communism I will bet on another case of "tHatS nOT rEaL coMMUnIsM"
Communism doesn't include a hierarchy of power enforced by violence. The two concepts are antithetical. The USSR was somewhere between capitalism and fascism.
None of the lower countries had communism.
Technically correct. They were under Stalins Marxism-Leninism, which was supposed to be a placeholder until true communism could be implemented.
But it's a bit disingenuous to split that hair in this thread. The irony being that the latter are all countries that got to experience the kind of gouvernemental structure that Lenin facilitated.
You can argue if they had sunshine scenario communism all day, but they certainly was under the oppressive thumb of USSR.
I didn't say anything about communism being good or bad there, just that none of those countries ever lived under communism.