Yeah, no, using a finite number to try and disprove a theory that is all specifically about infinite numbers isn't poking holes in anything..
this post was submitted on 01 Nov 2024
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Trash "research" and trash journalism covering it. First they find that monkeys would write Shakespeare, it would just take on average longer than the entire existence of the universe. They then try to infer that how long it takes is relevant. It is not. The calculation is vaguely interesting as a curio but the shoehorned "discussion" and interpretation to get attention is crap and another example of bad science misleading people.
It's pointless and stupid - the thought experiment itself is that infinite monkeys typing would eventually type the whole of Shakespeare. Not how long it would take. The whole point of it is that in a truly random system all known patterns should eventually emerge somewhere within it. The length of time it takes for the pattern to emerge is irrelevant as the idea is based in infinity. So for example if there is a truly random infinite multiverse then in theory all imaginable possibilities would exist somewhere within it at some point.
The whole point of it is that in a truly random system all known patterns should eventually emerge somewhere within it.
So pi (probably) has this property. There are some joke compression programs around this (they don't really work because it takes up more space to store where something in pi is, than storing the thing itself). But it is funny, to think that pi could theoretically hold every past, present, and future piece of information within those digits after the decimal.
https://github.com/philipl/pifs
https://ntietz.com/blog/why-we-cant-compress-messages-with-pi/
Also interesting is the notion of 'Kolmogorov Complexity' - what is the shortest programme that could produce a given output? Worst case for a truly random sequence would just be to copy it out, but a programme that outputs eg. a million digits of pi can actually be quite short. As can a programme that outputs a particular block cypher for an empty input. In general, it is very difficult to decide how long a programme is needed to produce a given output, and what the upper limit of compression could be.
"Extremely unlikely" != "never"
It's very unlikely to brute force modern encryption; but you might get lucky and crack it after only 3 or 4 tries. Just because there are 18 quadrillion+ possible permutations, doesn't mean you have to go through all of them before you find the right solution.
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There are an infinite number of values between one and two and none of them equal three.
True and irrelevant.
Wasn't the saying an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters? If so then they'd write Hamlet and indeed every other book written or ever will be written in however long it would conceivably take to type them out if you were copying them.
I don't really know how this myth? paradox is supposed to work? I know infinity isn't a number but a concept and in theory I understand what it's trying to say, but if I have an infinite amount of scrap yards and infinite amount of tornadoes, they can go on forever, but they'll never assemble a Boing 747.
An infinite number of monkeys typing randomly on an infinite number of typewriters, so long as the writing is truly random, will eventually write every novel. Once you factor in the infinite number of monkeys, every novel in existence will not only be written, it will be written an infinite number of times.
It's like saying if you had a random number generator and gave it an infinite amount of time generating 16 numbers at a time, it would eventually generate every bank card number ever an infinite number of times. Give that task to an infinite number of random number generators and they will generate every bank card number an infinite number of times instantaneously.
Come to think of it, if the tornado throws around junk completely randomly, and provided there's enough material in every junkyard to assemble a plane, the tornado will eventually assemble it. That's the power of infinity and randomness.
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Not the same the monkeys have all the capabilities and tools to cohesively combine letters words and white space. A tornado cannot weld and program controllers and solder. But a monkey can type randomly even wacking randomly. The idea is that given an infinite truly random output of text by the nature of infinity the text of Shakespeare will be outputted in its entirety eventually
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CLICKBAIT the theory goes "if given an infinite amount of time, a monkey pressing keys on a typewriter would eventually write the complete works of William Shakespeare." and then they say that would take longer than the universe would exist. SEE THE ORIGINAL QUOTE... INFINITE TIME. Also that is if it went through every combination. Due to Random Chance it could happen the 3rd try of you doing it.
This is a nothing burger of a story about some mathematicians that crunched some of the numbers involved and didn't like what they saw.
Awww, Muffin.
I mean we've not had infinite monkeys yet one of us already wrote Shakespeare's works
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I think their research is empirically falsified already. If chimp = monkey, then "simian" is reasonable generalisation of "monkey" - also that reflects a lot of real english speakers usage of the words.
A less than infinite number of simians have already done it once.
Not to mention that I think they're assuming no evolution. Fucking chriatian fundamentalists.
Not to mention that I think they're assuming no evolution. Fucking chriatian fundamentalists.
Wut.
I'm not christian and I assumed the experiment didn't allow for evolution as it was not specified in its parameters. I assumed that the monkeys were a horrible (and very wrong) analogy for random number generators, were immortal, and had no time for making offspring as they were all trained and consumed with typewriting, or physically separated from one another.
The monkeys would produce wildly more limited results than a random number generator mind you, and they are essentially frozen in evolutionary time, so they are not going to be writing shakespear.
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FACT: 90% of typing monkeys quit right when they're about to write Shakespeare.
Next they're going to tell us that a bird sharpening its beak every thousand years wouldn't wear out a mountain made of diamond.
It's soft tissue from benares touching a mountain every century, right? A kalpa IIRC.
A stupid article akin to someone on Lemmy misunderstanding an idium and going "well actually...".
And that's coming from me, a person who likes knowing how insanely unlikely it is a guess ever longer and longer pass phrases. A computer trying to brute force Hamlet would also fail before the heat death of the universe (probably, anyway- do the math and you too can publish junk!).
Says descendant of monkey
Apes, actually.
Yes, a different cuestion usually has a different answer
So the researchers didn't refute the assumption "given an infinite amount of time," and instead chose to address the long finite-time case, which is fundamentally different.
To quote the theme song of a science show on BBC radio:
If infinite monkeys type every day
They may accidentally write ‘Hamlet’ the play
But they'll probably shit on it and throw it away
In the Infinite Monkey Cage
Article about monkeys not being able to complete the works of Shakespeare has this line in it:
Despite its name, the so-called heat death would actually be slow and cold.
Science reporting is such a weird job.
Despite its name, so-called kidney disease is rarely caused by an overabundance of kidneys
The study found a finite number of monkeys in a finite amount of time would not write all the works of Shakespeare.
Which is not what the common saying said.
Not with that attitude.
200,000 chimpanzees is = to zero monkeys. The study is flawed.
"It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times"
Basic information theory.
The probability that a monkey would throw its shit against the wall and have it look exactly like Shakespeare is, on the other hand, extremely likely in our lifetime.
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