FluffyPotato

joined 2 years ago
[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -1 points 7 months ago (13 children)

You know the anarchist group I'm part of had people like you join from time to time that seem more interested in reading, purity testing and just calling other members "bad lefties" instead of taking part in local politics which is our main goal. Calling me unserious while complaining about definitions takes the cake though.

You seem to have misread it more. Yes, parties were banned but so were factions in the bolshevik party, elected city soviets and pretty much all groups outside the party. Meaningful elections happened only inside the party, the elections everyone took part in were for show, they gave no control to the workers. It's all in that source.

If you are interested in how elections were run in the USSR this is pretty much how I remember: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_Soviet_Union From what I remember the candidates you could actually vote for were party picks that would do the same thing anyways so your vote was merely symbolic. Over time people cought on to that and voter turnout crashed so hard the party started handing out exotic fruit to people who show up, I got my first orange that way.

If you want to know what happened to the worker councils in the USSR read it here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_council

Pat Sloan probably took part in an election before Stalin, as I previously said, the election process after Lenin was very different. So, yea one dissenting historian.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -2 points 7 months ago (15 children)

You provided one source which also lists the Thurston and Sloan quotes as a dissenting opinions to the rest of the article. The Wikipedia article itself states that worker councils lost both their power and ability to vote followed by protests by workers which were violently put down.

Why do I need to provide more sources when the one you provided almost fully agrees with my statement with the exception of one dissenting historian?

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -2 points 7 months ago (17 children)

As I have said I have read enough Marx in my youth and usage of one word does not change a single part of my argument or any point which was that post Lenin in the USSR workers did not own the means of production.

Also you earlier said that your opinion is supported by historians and I missed that comment then so let me address that: It's supported by one dissenting opinion on the Wikipedia article. The rest of the article agrees with my statement.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -2 points 7 months ago (19 children)

I'm old, I'm not going to reread all of the things I read in my youth. The usage of bourgeoisie has changed colloquially and I don't really care either, it's irrelevant to the USSR having worker control after Lenin.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -3 points 7 months ago (21 children)

I already checked the book where the quote is from and it doesn't say when he participated in the election. At least I didn't find it but I can only assume it was before 1921.

I guess bourgeoisie does technically refer to a ruling class in a capitalist society but it's so commonly used to refer to just a ruling class or just who owns the means of production in general conversation that my usage is more colloquial. Like I would also refer to a monarch and the royal family as the bourgeoisie while the society isn't capitalist.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -3 points 7 months ago (23 children)

I did but that section definitely does not reflect what life was for a worker in the USSR after Stalin so I'm curious when he participated in that election.

I did not say that capitalists were in power what I said was that the party was in power. There aren't just 2 options, a monarchy for example is commonly neither capitalist nor socialist.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -3 points 7 months ago (25 children)

If you read your own source you will find that soviet democracy pretty much fell in 1921 and with the death of Lenin it was gone. Which was my original statement that with Stalin any hope for socialism was gone. So my point of it being bourgeoisie rule stands.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -3 points 7 months ago (27 children)

I never said a direct democracy is needed but worker control of the means of production is, in the USSR workers did not have that. Pretty much all meaningful elections in the USSR were held within the party by the party, not by the workers. The party was a bourgeoisie ruling class with vastly different class interests which is why the USSR was not socialist.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -4 points 7 months ago (29 children)

Planned by the party, not the workers. Workers lacked any voice in the party, it was no different than any other authoritarian rule in that aspect.

I grew up in the USSR, nearby farms were controlled by a kolhoos which was headed by someone important in the party, the farmers had no say in what was to be produced or to who their produce goes to, only the party decided that. The same control existed for every other industry, party gave the orders with no input from a single worker, commonly even going against workers in their orders.

I would love a system where workers actually controlled the means of production but the USSR was not that.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -4 points 7 months ago (31 children)

Workers had no control over the means of production. Those were owned by the party which was just another form of bourgeoisie rule. A good example of that was the insane amount of nepotism in the party leading to appointment of friends and relatives with no competency who went against the wishes of the workers. Trofim Lysenko for example was appointed by Stalin and his policies forced farmers to basically kill their crops leading to mass famines in the USSR and those that didn't were declared fascists, traitors or something along those lines.

It's not socialist if the workers lack any control.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee -3 points 7 months ago (33 children)

While yes, a socialist country would have other priorities but let's also not forget that the USSR wasn't socialist. Before Stalin it had the potential to be sometime in the future but that got sidelined at best.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago

I don't doubt it, Apple has never had good gaming performance. But a non apple laptop in the same price range with X86 aimed at gaming can run it a lot better.

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