LeFantome

joined 1 year ago
[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 0 points 11 months ago

Why not Arch? The Steam Deck is Arch. Seems like a good choice.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 1 points 11 months ago

No idea why you are getting downvoted.

A great middle-ground is EndeavourOS. It has a great installer. It makes pretty decent choices. You have a pretty much 100% pure Arch system after install. There are only a couple dozen EndeavourOS packages and most of them are utilities. You can remove all the EndeavourOS stuff in a couple of minutes if you really want to and comment out the repos. Not sure why you would. Just pointing out how vanilla it is.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I am not theorizing. And I am not taking about source code not compiling. I am talking about dependencies which includes the reports version numbers and version number expectations of packages maintained by different parties. Those broke all the time for me on Manjaro and it was often because of the differences between what was in the Arch repos vs the Manjaro repos.

When Manjaro fell behind at one point, I ended up with a version of GEGL ( labeled - git ) being pulled from the AUR. Later releases of GIMP refused to upgrade over that version of GEGL. I just lived with it for a few months hoping it would clear itself up but it never did. I basically had to back everything my out and install again. Not that it was hard but these kinds of annoyances happened for me all the time on Mnajaro and basically never on EbdeavourOS or Arch.

What made me move away from Manjaro to begin with were all the problems it had with the dotnet packages at the time. I blamed dotnet and the AUR and was amazed that the problems went away when I used EndeavourOS instead.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=x_server_contributors&num=1

"There were eight major software vendors that turned up from our analysis and that included Apple, Debian, FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD, Gentoo, Mandriva, Novell, Red Hat, and Tungsten Graphics. The biggest software company contributing to the X server has been Red Hat"

"In third place for the number of commits is Adam Jackson, an employee of Red Hat. Adam has just been committing to X.Org since 2004 but he represents over 9% of the total workload. Adam Jackson is serving as the X.Org 7.4 release manager."

In addition to being the largest contributor, the key part of this discussion is that Red Hat manages the release process.

EDiT: In my laziness, I pulled an article from years ago that proves nothing. I will leave it though as what it does show is that Red Hat has been doing the heavy lifting on Xorg for over a decade.

Make up your own mind. Here are the commits to the Xorg project:

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/commits/master

You might notice that a substantial amount of the “Xorg” activity is really XWayland. That both illustrates that X will be actively maintained for a long time yet and that the number of devs that care about Xorg directly is dwindling.

We will see what happens. My guess is that almost everybody migrates to Wayland before 2027. Time will tell.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

People are completely missing the point here. “Who made Red Hat the arbiter of when Xorg should end?”

I would say nobody but perhaps a better answer is all of us that have left the work of maintaining Xorg to Red Hat. All that Red Hat is deciding is when they are going to stop contributing. So little is done by others that, if Red Hat stops, Xorg is effectively done.

Others are of course free to step up. In fact, it may not be much work. Red Hat will still be doing most of the work as they will still be supporting Xwayland ( mostly the same code as Xorg ), libdrm, libinput, KMS, and other stuff that both Xorg and Wayland share. They just won’t be bundling it up, testing it, and releasing it as Xorg anymore.

We will see if anybody steps up.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 1 points 11 months ago

I use super old hardware as well. An SSD will blow your mind.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Linux is tribal for sure. But the Manjaro issues are real ( as a past user ).

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 0 points 11 months ago (4 children)

There are many cases where Manjaro causes problems. For example, a package mag already be in Arch but not yet in Manjaro. Or perhaps the Manjaro package is not a high enough version number. If another Arch package requires this first package, in Arch it would grab the Arch package. The Arch package will be maintained over time. In Manajaro, the package is not there and so the AUR grabs it from the AUR as well. Perhaps it is even the Git version with an unclear version number. Over time, the AUR dependency breaks or becomes unmaintained. Even once Manjaro has the package, it may not migrate it because of the version numbers. Now things are broken. This exact thing happened to me on Manjaro where my GIMP ended up using GEGL from the AUR. My system was broken for months.

An even worse problem can happen when there are alternate dependencies. Sometimes in the AUR you will have multiple packages that fulfill a dependency. In Arch, you can see if one is from the actual repos and one is itself from the AUR. Again, if you choose the one in the repos, it will work and stay supports. In Manjaro, neither may be coming from the actual repos in which case it is easy to choose the wrong one. This sets you up to have package conflicts. In Manjaro, I would never know that the other option had now been added to the repos. More than once, I had the dependency that I had chosen break when the other would still have been fine.

Ok, this is getting long and that was just a couple of scenarios.

Suffice it to say, when I used Manjaro, I got the impression that the AUR broke all the time and that using the AUR broke my install from time to time. Now that I use Arch, I do not have those issues and I realize that it was Manjaro all along.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 7 points 11 months ago (16 children)

I used to be a huge Manjaro fan. There were many ways it let me down, some of which were just bad governance.

The biggest problem though is the AUR. Manjaro uses packages that are older than Arch. The AUR assumes the Arch packages. This, if your use the AUR with Manjaro, your system will break.

It is not a question of if Manjaro will break but when. Every ex-Manjaro user has the same story.

For me, EndeavourOS is everything that Manjaro should be.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

If you are a Linux user and like commercial games, you probably would prefer them to work on Linux.

“Market share” on Linux aligns the vested interest of game makers and Linux game players. If the company thinks it can make money, it will do more to allow games to run, or at least do less to stop them.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

GPT would offer excellent English and perhaps some nice formatting in at least twice as many words.

[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago

I thought this as well but the more I think about it, the less true this seems. From an engineering point of view, it could last longer.

Xwayland is really just Xorg and Xwayland continues to be supported in RHEL10 and beyond.

Xorg and Wayland compositors have grown together in some ways. Both now use libinput, libdrm, and KMS for example. Those are not going away.

Xwayland is really just Xorg adapted to talk to Wayland instead of KMS and libinput. It is mostly the same code. So, Xorg will continue to benefit from the care and attention that Xwayland gets. Perhaps there may not be many new features but the code is not going to bit rot and security will continue to be addressed. While Xwayland does not use libinput or KMS, the Wayland compositor itself will, so those pieces are also going to be maintained including new features and new hardware support. Mesa is a common component as well.

So, while Red Hat may stop coordinating releases of Xorg at some point, a surprising amount of the code will still be actively maintained and current. It may not take a lot of work for somebody else to take over and bundle it up as a release.

What will probably kill Xorg is lack of demand.

Despite the anti-Wayland chatter, the migration to Wayland looks like it will gain substantial momentum this year and next and not only on Linux. Three to five years from now, the number of people that still care about Xorg ( as the primary display server - not as Xwayland ) may be very small indeed. Obviously it will be running on older systems for a long, long time but, ten years from now, installing Xorg on a new system is likely to be very rare ( like CP/M now rare ).

Red Hat may end up being one of the very last players that cares about Xorg after 2030. My guess is that most of the current never-Wayland crowd will have moved to it long before then.

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