PotatoesFall

Would Al Jazeera suffice? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/8/10/one-million-muslim-uighurs-held-in-secret-china-camps-un-panel

Define liberal please because I don't like being called one.

In the same way that some people will shill for billionaires or for some billionaire-owned company, aka a corporate shill. People who fail to see that (capitalist) companies are just a way to extract profit. In the same vein, some people fail to see that nation states are just instruments of power. Some are better than others in different ways of course, but I get real itchy when people jump to defend a nation at the first smidgeon of criticism. I hate nationalism.

I don't see what the approval rates of these two countries have to do with anything here. In terms of the economy and infrastructure, China is indeed moving in the right direction. That doesn't mean I think China is a force of good in the world. It's a nation state and should be subject to criticism. And all I'm saying is that there are people who will religiously dogpile you if you try to do that, and I call those people tankies.

Hong Kong has experienced violent oppression from China when there were protests. Taiwan wants to be independent but is not recognized as such by China. While Western media has certainly exaggerated claims, there are credible reports of uyghurs being repressed. I'm not saying this behavior is worse than Western imperialist behavior. I'm saying these are imperialist behaviors, and just like the US, the Chinese government tries to cover them up or pretend they aren't happening, or comes up with some reason for it.

What I'm saying is that there are some people who buy into that, and will shut down any criticism of it.

Okay we might have a different definition of liberal. (ironically under a post where I'm arguing about the definition of tankie lol). I'm talking about people who think capitalism can work or can be made to work. People who conflate capitalism and the fake meritocracy sold by the American dream with actual freedom.

If liberal just means somebody who believes that freedom is important, then yeah I'm a liberal. But maybe you have a different definition? (genuinely asking, not trying to be standoffish)

You have a misconception about anarchism being about individualism though. Anarchists focus on community and communes. Most anarchist theory I've consumed laments the individualism that capitalism tries to sell because it destroys culture and community.

it is Marxism that has brought great improvements to China’s conditions, and these improvements are continuing at a rapid pace, and thus has widespread support.

I can face that reality I think.

All fair points, but what about Taiwan and Hong Kong? What about the treatment of minorities?

New theory just dropped, everyone: The more people a government represents, the more evil that government is.

lmao. I unironically believe this though. The more you concentrate power, the harder it is to keep bad actors from abusing said power.

Funny how 95% of the Chinese population approves of and rates favorably this terrible “ruling over” they are being subjected to.

Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?

yep <3

Unfortunately I've hat the displeasure of "conversing" with a few people who are unable to handle even that level of nuance

hehe Yogthos I was actually thinking of you when I mentioned China stans :P no offense

I really don't like being called a liberal though :( what makes me come across like a liberal? Is it my anarchism? My hatred of capitalism, colonialism and western hegemony?

I'm actually really happy that you mentioned Shock Doctrine because last time I was arguing with a tankie they called Naomi Klein a US state sanctioned liberal :D

I already replied on another comment about the support

90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.

I'm sure a lot of the policy that the CCP has put forward are great, especially if compared to the US counterparts, but that doesn't justify violence and oppression.