No one says "me are going", but lots of people say "me and X are going", indicating that for native speakers, coordination of noun phrases functions differently than a single noun phrase.

In a contrasting case, people might think the phrase "I and John are here" sounds wrong, though they'd accept "John and I are here." If you're going by the "pure grammar" rule of "remove one subject from the phrase and check the grammar", you'd have to accept either of those as equally viable, but many people don't.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Close but not quite: the correct grammar is to always mention yourself last (with second person coming first if present in the sentence and then third person) and, as you say, use I or me depending on which one it would be if the others weren't in the sentence.

Wrong

"Me and Dave are going spelunking"

"Remember that Dave, you, and I are going spelunking"

"This is a picture of Dave and I spelunking"

Right

"Dave and I are going spelunking"

"Remember that you, Dave, and I are going spelunking"

"This is a picture of Dave and me spelunking"

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip -3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

the correct grammar is to always mention yourself last

That was exactly why I mentioned this case. What exactly separates the grammar of "I (and Dave) am going" vs "Dave (and I) is going"? They're both "subject plus verb", indicating that the order of the coordinations is a matter of style, not grammar.

As to the subjective vs objective cases, the reasons I brought that up is that grammar seeks to explain the rules of language as native speakers use it. Therefore, the only "wrong" grammar is constructions that natives wouldn't use, such as (eg) mimicking a Japanese grammar structure and saying "I the house to go." Since native speakers often use cases like "Me and Dave are going spelunking", it's not wrong, merely a different register of speaking.

Accepting only prestige dialects as "correct" grammar is why people continue to think things like "black people don't speak right", despite the fact that African American English has the same consistency of grammar that the prestige dialect does.

[–] stu@lemmy.pit.ninja 3 points 11 months ago

I would encourage people to code switch rather than adhere to one style of language over another in every case. Imho, it's kind of problematic that language itself has become racialized in America to the point where people can actually be criticized or made fun of for speaking in the "wrong" style associated with their perceived ethnic background.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

What exactly separates the grammar of "I (and Dave) am going" vs "Dave (and I) is going"?

The same thing that seperates the first one from "going Dave am I and". Word order matters.

the order of the coordinations is a matter of style, not grammar.

Categorically false

Therefore, the only "wrong" grammar is constructions that natives wouldn't use

Wrong again. Plenty of native speakers of just about every single language there is have atrocious grammar. Native ≠ correct grammar.

It's not wrong, merely a different register of speaking

It's wrong when it comes to grammar. Whether or not gramatically incorrect colloquial speech is acceptable and sometimes even preferable to being gramatically correct (it is in most cases, but in some it can be very grating) is a different matter entirely.

Accepting only prestige dialects as "correct" grammar

Nobody said anything about dialect

people continue to think things like "black people don't speak right

As I mentioned earlier, colloquial speech can be as good as or better than gramatically correct speech in some cases.

You're mixing up a whole lot of things that aren't grammar and just generally being wildly wrong all over the place.

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip -1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Native ≠ correct grammar.

Then who's the authority on grammar? We don't have a single entity like the academie francaise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise?useskin=vector

[–] dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Just because there is no central authority does not mean there is no general consensus. English classes from elementary school to university aren't accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.

Descriptivism has a place in the evolution of language, but not in a wholesale "everything native speakers might say is grammatically correct if they are understood".

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 2 points 11 months ago

English classes from elementary school to university aren’t accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.

So who has the authority when experts disagree? Like I said, no one is saying "I house go" but some people think "Give this to whomever comes here first" is correct while others argue for "whoever". Descriptivism by definition seeks to explain how language functions. Prescriptivism only works within a narrowly defined framework, like APA or MLA for example, but even within those there's disagreement.