this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
1143 points (93.7% liked)
Memes
45868 readers
1318 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Have the Korean government massacred anyone since their democratisation?
You obviously don't live in East Asia to realise why the South Korean government delay the handover. I will give you an important hint as much as national security: it saves them money. They get more bang for the buck. Same with the EU hosting American military bases. The EU isn't being accused for "free-riding" for a reason.
South Korea get more than they bargained for which, not only deters North Korea and China, but also save them money. Why change the status quo overnight if it serves them very well so far?
Going back to the original matter at hand; yes, South Korea still exercise agency outside of the US influence in this matter. SK uses US more than the other way around.
Yes. They were "democratic" before 1980.
I understand why South Korean parties bend the knee, but your original point is wrong and you've shifted.
You obviously know I mean after 1980 that SK democratised. But sure, keep rationalising and accusing me of logical fallacies that you yourself is committing. Hard to look on the mirror I know.
The world isn't as conspiratorial as you might think it is, with power players in a smoky backroom concocting plans and deals to manipulate people. I used to think like you. Fact of the matter is that the world is anarchic.
It's not hard to see that the US has explicit power over South Korea, regardless of what the citizens want. You're bending over backwards to justify US Imperialism.
Sure, keep thinking that. It is though non-white, non-Caucasians are perptual victims of Western imperialism, and could not think for themselves, and have to be looked after by white liberals and leftists from preying eyes of Western imperialist states. This does not sound at all like the condescending white man's burden with a different flavour.
That's certainly a dodge. Keep bending over backwards to justify US Imperialism, one day it might bite you.
I will add more cognitive dissonance on you. Did it occur to you and with other Western liberals and left to ask South Koreans what they think? It is easy to be slacktivist keyboard warrior, comfortably sitting behind a computer, and act high and mighty while living in a country not being threatened by a neighbour, pretending to speak in behalf of people they do not have intimate knowledge of.
This attitude is also exactly what Slavoj Zizek and Jordan Peele have criticised about Western white liberals who feels offended on behalf of persons of colour without asking what they truly think, and view them as perpetual victims who could not look after themselves. Sounds a lot like the old right-wing racist white man's burden mentality, doesn't it? But this is ironically coming from the left and liberals. There's nothing wrong with gracefully acknowledging it, but not repeating it is what matters more.
Yes, I have. The majority of my knowledge of South Korean politics comes from South Korean immigrants, and confirmation via independent research on my own. You aren't introducing any cognitive dissonance, you're just giving me the opportunity to yet again prove you wrong.
Oh sure, you did your research and haven't just made things up on the spot right now. Keep coping.
What have I made up, exactly? That I touch grass and am close with many South Korean immigrants? If that's what you take issue with, I can walk away from this convo knowing that I was 100% correct the entire time, and you just cope and mald, calling me a liar, despite me being 100% correct about everything I've said leading up to this recent comment.
South Korea could acquire wartime control of their military almost immediately, like the Philippines elected to kick out the Americans from their major base in the country in 1991, but ROK haven't so deal with it. There is more to politics than virtue signalling. Like I said, the world is anarchic than anyone realise.
More dodging, lol.
More coping.
-Moves goalposts the entire time and refuses to admit that the US has power over the people of South Korea
-baselessly claims I'm a liar for touching grass and talking to people who have been directly impacted by what I'm talking about
Lol
In what way does US pressure South Korea not to acquire wartime control of their military?
Building dependency, by which the US maintains an important foothold on East Asian soil.
And what are precise mechanisms by which the US achieves that over South Korea?
By providing aid and by engineering the ROK during its founding. Pretty simple stuff.
We're talking about South Korea not having wartime control of the army right now, not during the founding.
How is US pressuring South Korea not to have wartime control of their army, right now?
Are you legitimately trying to argue that history has no bearing on current conditions? Lmao.
You're dodging now. South Korea isn't there same dictatorship now as it once was and had multiple, multiparty governments, all of which elected democratically since 1980s.
The US has had peactime control of the Korean military until unilaterally given the peacetime control to ROK in 1994. In 2000's, they have had discussions then for ROK to also have wartime control of the army, but then delayed due to North Korean posturing. This has been delayed yet again in 2015. If you read the article I linked or know the actual history, you would know that. So now, why is there still delay and why do you think US pressure has to do with it? How is the US doing this, even though in 2015 the Obama administration has gotten frustrated with the delay?
The ROK was built by the US, and modeled as they saw fit. You're making the same argument that the US constitution doesn't impact modern American life, because George Washington is dead. That's a fallacy, it hasn't been restructured in any meaningful capacity.
Yes, the ROK has peacetime control. They don't have wartime control, despite posturing. The US still keeps the ROK on a leash, and is waiting for the time when they don't even need to directly control the ROK as they will be subservient regardless.
You really love Imperialism, I guess.
The ROK army is modeled after US military, and so is the Philippine army whose government has full control. But those have nothing to do with the question you still have not answered. How is being modeled after the US army applying pressure to South Korea to not acquire wartime control right now?
I literally gave the KCIA as an example, the ROK itself is designed by the US.
You're clearly not interested in answering honestly or directly, just dodging and justifying Imperialism, rather than sovereignty.
That's like saying US is French stooge because the French trained Americans with their system during the American Revolution, and despite fighting the French shortly after in the Quasi War.
You still have not answered on what possibly the precise mechanism by which US manipulate ROK. For the sake of the argument that a system being modeled after another country's is sign of being pressured, how does this explain ROK's stalling to have wartime control of their army, while the US has expressed frustration with the delay?
you're such an utter ignoramus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung_Hee
Has nothing do with the debate, tankie.
I could also give you a Wikipedia entry of Joseph Stalin, a fellow dictator that has nothing to do with 21st century South Korean politics.
Imagine claiming that US having installed a brutal dictatorship in occupied Korea after the war has nothing to do with the debate dronie.
Obviously, a tankie old fart is still living in the 20th century who thinks South Korea is still a dictatorship.
Obviously a dronie thinks that occupied Korea is a flourishing democracy. 😂