I mean, I guess if that’s where we’re going to go, it doesn’t matter what I say, the number of organizations, within the UN, outside the UN, independent, dependent. You’re just going to call bullshit because who said it isn’t happening? China? Odd, I wonder what they’d have to gain by saying they aren’t committing human atrocities.

There are no organizations, to my knowledge, that are dying on the hill that there’s absolutely nothing happening with the Uyghurs.

There are a lot of reports that say shits going down. Yes, I’m sure a lot of it is editorialized. Just like anything about America in those countries. I’m not naive enough to believe anyone at face value but I’m not going to write off everything as propaganda either. Even China says the camps exist basically specifically for them, for “reeducation”. Which, sure, maybe the people need, but, to believe that at face value is a level of bliss I would love to reach.

And before anyone goes “well the US..” I CONDEMN THAT SHIT TOO. Stop fucking murdering people. There isn’t some magical government that’s better than anyone else. They all fucking suck.

But to pretend it isn’t happening, that’s a tragedy. I hope if someone has to give you compassion on that level, you get it. Cause it’s the least we can do to each other.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Sigh, alright I guess I'll address the nonsense in detail for you. The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.

However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let's just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.

This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City's biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.

According to Wikipedia, "The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000." Let's assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?

Let's do some math:

Rikers Size	Rikers Prisoners	One Million Uyghurs Size
413.2 acres (0.645 square miles)	10,000 to 15,000	43 to 64 square miles

In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.

For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You'd literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It'd be like looking at a map of California. There's Los Angeles. There's San Diego. And look, there's San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.

Literally visible to the naked eye from space.

CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense from logistics perspective.

Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.

Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”

Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.

Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.

Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.

The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely.

It's also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here's George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here's an excerpt:

US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west. In fact, US even classified Uyghur separatists as a terrorist group at one point https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/

Here's an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html

Here's an account from a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on "atrocities" are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/

It's also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.

Also notable that whenever western media actually deigns to visit Xinjiang, which is not often, they're unable to produce support for any of their claims of mass imprisonment and oppression, so they opt for insinuations instead https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9

There's a further list of debunking here if you're interested https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/

The whole thing is very clearly a propaganda blitz that US is cynically using to manipulate impressionable people in the west.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

Well, considering the length of response, and time between them, this was a copy-pasta. But, given the context, I will read through this. I do genuinely want to like have some discourse because, admittedly, I’m not a china expert.

However, you’re going to need to give me time, and this is a lot to go through.

And I may have some counter points and questions, so please be patient?

At the end of the day, I really don’t think china = bad. Us = good. However, I find that whenever I have conversations with anyone about it, on either side, they refuse to see how any sane person could come to a conclusion that isn’t theirs.

I’m very open to changing my mind, but it may take some time if you’re up for it.

Also hitting me with the “YoU ReAd TaBloIDs” then hitting me with a qz article is🤌🏻 however, I’ll be open.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago

Here’s a fun bonus one:

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This comes up often enough that I do have the sources handy. And sure, if you have actual questions/points that aren't just flippant then we can discuss those.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I will do my best to add something and questions beyond the “china bad” narrative.

If I do come up with some stuff that you think is disingenuous, please call it out, maybe I’ll be able to rephrase certain things. I’ll reply up a bit in the chain after I look into everything!

(This may take like a day or 2 realistically)

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

No rush, it's a big link dump to go through. Most people don't really bother, so I appreciate the fact that you're willing to actually examine the evidence that's available.

[–] Hathaway@lemmy.zip 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It is certainly a link dump lmao if I do change my mind on the dump alone, I won’t just quietly “ope, guess I’m wrong, delete everything” either hahahah but, I may add some strike through’s and edits as to why I don’t think something as I go. This is going to be my personal deep dive on this topic. If there’s anything I’m strongly “anti” it’s human atrocities. Lmao, high bar, right? But, I do like to light up any government I get to when it comes to that shit.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -1 points 7 months ago

I would hope most people are against atrocities. The question is ultimately what the truth of any particular situation is, and what the motivations of the people are. Understanding that is not always easy, but a good rule of thumb is that nations tend to be less than truthful about their geopolitical rivals.

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