I actually started on Kbin.social, but then it got shut down, Kbin died and now fedia.io seems to be the largest one running MBin. I like the interface on MBin and I guess it's good to have a diverse fediverse with different services, but at the same time, why use mbin when everyone congregates on lemmy instances? The local magazines on fedia are for the most part, quite dead, when compared to lemmy collections. In the end I feel like there aren't enough people to go around to support many more services like MBin and Piefed.

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[–] jerry@fedia.io 124 points 4 months ago (30 children)

I run fedia.io. I also run Infosec.pub. Which is lemmy so I know a lot about both. Lemmy is much more robust, but I personally find the interface for Mbin much nicer and the development of it seems to be headed in a direction I like better than that of lemmy. At least for now.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 36 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Jerry ... admin of many instances!

the development of it seems to be headed in a direction I like better than that of lemmy

Just curious what sorts of things you have in mind here ... it's been a while since I used a k/mbin platform? (I was on kbin.social, RIP, hopefully it returns).

[–] cabbage@piefed.social 24 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Mbin is very community oriented in it's development, collective decision-making and all that. Lemmy is more subject to the ideas of it's creators, for better or for worse.

[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I picked up by the Beehaw drama is that the Lemmy devs do not seem to be too interested in improving moderation support. I don't know if this is politics related but I wouldn't be surprised.

[–] cabbage@piefed.social 12 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think everyone is always interested in improving, but there are a billion different ideas of what improvement looks like. Especially with content moderation.

What is a brilliant way to handle some issues might cause new problems that may or may not be difficult to predict. A lot of people have a lot of ideas, and people feel strongly about it. And most importantly, it's a lot of work to implement and typically not the most fun work for developers who tend to be be underpaid at best anyway.

It seems every fediverse service that gets big enough has people chanting about a hard fork because the developers don't care enough about content moderation. I believe it's probably more that it's extremely difficult, and that developers facing the reality of the situation might come across as dismissive when responding to ideas and suggestions.

The Lemmy developers initially included a filter for numerous slurs - I have a hard time believing they don't want content moderation to be their own vision of as good as possible.

In the end our strength is in fragmentation. I believe, no matter how little moderation tools improve, the small instances I'm on will never get as awful as Reddit. And if they do, I'll migrate to another one that's more trigger-happy about defederating. :)

That said, not sure whether you're wrong and absolutely not correcting you! Just my five cents.

[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I believe it's probably more that it's extremely difficult, and that developers facing the reality of the situation might come across as dismissive when responding to ideas and suggestions.

The problem is that them being on a political extremist side of things makes it incredibly hard to take their word for it and to take them at face value. The most trouble Lemmy communities are facing is coming exactly from the spaces that align not just with the devs views, but in case of Lemmy.ml and Lemmygrad even the ownership. So when more moderate lefty instances like Beehaw complain about the lack of moderation tools to handle the trolls from those places, it might just be that the devs are completely fine with what's happening.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

While the political friction is very real, my perspective on the whole dynamic is that the anticipation of or focus on the friction is one of the biggest source of problems.

For instance, you cite beehaw and state that it's the extreme leftist instances that are the most troublesome ... when beehaw famously defederated from lemmy.world ages ago, as well as sh.itjust.works, while the admin of lemm.ee has said, controversially for some of their users I believe, that they don't really understand all of the fuss over hexbear. Meanwhile, lemmy.ml tries to stay widely federated AFAICT, and from what I've gathered, the admins have even gotten in hot water with their lefty users for not defederating from more right-wing-ish instances earlier, and then are often criticised for their active moderation on their own instance.

Point being that it's all probably a bit of a mess that doesn't neatly align with left v right.

I'd bet that the biggest problems with the core devs approach to moderation tooling is that they have like making them and don't like what they perceive to be a culture of demanding open source users (which I've come to understand over time actually).

[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io -1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

What?

when beehaw famously defederated from lemmy.world ages ago, as well as sh.itjust.works

They've been defederated from lemmy.ml, lemmygrad and hexbear for much longer though.

while the admin of lemm.ee has said, controversially for some of their users I believe, that they don't really understand all of the fuss over hexbear.

I guess that explains the heavy Tankie presence on that instance, which I've negatively noticed as well.

I'm not sure what your point here regarding Beehaw is though.

Meanwhile, lemmy.ml tries to stay widely federated AFAICT, and from what I've gathered, the admins have even gotten in hot water with their lefty users for not defederating from more right-wing-ish instances earlier, and then are often criticised for their active moderation on their own instance.

And here you lost me completely. What right-wing-ish instances are we talking about? Because I have yet to see anything that even mildly steers into that direction. And what moderation? Banning non far left positions and those who talk back against far left disinformation? Just look at their news sub and how much mod abuse & disinformation there is. Tankies can freely insult people and the mods do absolutely nothing. Correct disinformation and you get banned. If that's an issue for the admins, then they could actually do something about it, since they literally own that instance.

and don't like what they perceive to be a culture of demanding open source users (which I've come to understand over time actually).

"Demanding open source users" is a nice way of framing community demands negatively. lol

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago

They’ve been defederated from lemmy.ml, lemmygrad and hexbear for much longer though.

They're not defederated from lemmy.ml

I’m not sure what your point here regarding Beehaw is though.

That they're defederated from lemmy.world, a centrist/mainstream/reddit-like whatever instance, which plenty of others have trouble with too, indicating things aren't as simple as "left instances are trouble".

What right-wing-ish instances are we talking about?

It's apparently historical, so prob 2020 or so.

“Demanding open source users” is a nice way of framing community demands negatively. lol

Well it can cut both ways I think. That open source burn out is real and that open source has attained a strangely consumerist culture is real. If you're not aware you may not be plugged in enough. That of course is no excuse to neglect your community, I'd likely agree with you that the lemmy devs could do significantly better on that front. I think I've even seen them admit as much.

[–] cabbage@piefed.social 1 points 4 months ago

Yeah, they certainly don't have the same sense of urgency as the rest of us. I don't think it's bad intent as such, it's just that their priorities are very different.

Don't get me wrong - this is a massive part of the reason why I've never bothered to use Lemmy. So I absolutely think you're on to something.

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