this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2024
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I was considering a Mazda for my next car. Now I’m not.
I live in a place that gets fucking cold in the winter. If the normal fob option were always available and you get the option to pay for the convenience using an app, that would be one thing - though $10/month for that is ridiculous. But removing the fob option and locking this basic feature behind a subscription is exactly the sort of game I don’t want my vehicle to play with me.
Go ahead and sell roadside coverage, parts/repairs, batteries, get royalties from Sirius or whatever for extra cash flow. Make a great app that adds new convenient live-service features and is worth paying for, even. But fuck all these new subscription un-gimping games.
Toyota, Mazda and Honda are the only makes I’ve really ever considered, or ever plan to consider. Of those 3, Honda has not gone that route yet as far as I know. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Honda collects and sells your driving history without your consent.
ALL of them do this. Literally all.
Is there a sim card buried in there somewhere that can be removed or is it soldered in, potted, etc?
... Or your car bricks if you remove it wouldn't surprise me, regardless.
Could very well be an eSIM ...
Yeah there's a SIM card in most new cars, usually in a place that's not easily accessible.
22 CRV here. Fob based remote start, no subscription for that or anything (though I would like to get the maps updates without payin) :(
I've used three remote start once in almost 3 years and I live in Wisconsin. It's just really not that necessary. The car warms up quickly just driving.
Subaru does the same thing, on my car it was free for three years then you pay or lose all connected features. That includes remote start, there is no way to start the car from the keyfob.
At least it sounds like they told you this. They probably aligned it with the most common lease period. Mazda just suddenly decided to make it a subscription.
Ideally it should be longer, like 8-10 years.
Yeah it was not a surprise, and I understand someone has to pay for the bandwidth those features use up. But I still resent them for making remote start app-only.
I am otherwise happy with the car itself, but this does leave kind of a sour aftertaste. I feel like it’s only going to get worse with my next car…
Might as well throw Subarus into that list. They're LGBT Toyotas lol
Subaru has their own set of issues
https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/02/23/subaru-right-to-repair-fight-cars
Toyota tried to push this exact same remote start subscription BS as well so cross them out too
It took me 6 months to find a newer truck that had no Internet connectivity at all, and it was a royal PITA.
For some reason AA doesn't work on my phone. I suspect it's a USB permissions issue, but I'm not motivated enough to dig into it any deeper lol.
I was planning on going electric with my next vehicle and I'm really hoping they force all the Chinese brands to disconnect them for national security or whatever. Just that will make the special import tax worth it.
I'm also kind of pissed at most car companies anyways, they have been dragging their feet when it comes to climate change. At least Byd is trying to offer cheap evs even if it's to fuck with our economy.
Don't know if you can guarantee they're disconnected.
Oh hey, looks who's defending a billionaire!
As much as I'm sure this answer will be hated, Tesla cars don't require a subscription for basic remote services. What comes free is:
With the phone app there are zero regular features that require a monthly sub. Free things include:
Tesla does have an optional monthly subscription but that gets you:
However the car operates just fine without any of that optional stuff and therefor there's no mandatory fee for regular functionality.
Those things are free…for now….while they feel like it. There’s nothing stopping them from charging for that stuff when their stock price dips another 20%.
They could change it for cars purchased in the future, but they can't do what Mazda did and start charging for it now. So its either lifetime of free Standard connectivity, or at worst 8 years. These are part of the purchase agreement.
"All new Tesla vehicles ordered on or before July 20, 2022, will have Standard Connectivity features at no cost for the lifetime of the vehicle (excluding retrofits or upgrades required for any features or services externally supplied to the vehicle – e.g. telecommunications network). As additional features and services become available in the future, you will have the opportunity to upgrade your connectivity plan."
source
I still don’t understand how that stops them from charging a subscription when their stock drops a bit more.
Contract law.
You know that "Terms and Conditions" you agree to all the time that binds you to things. It binds them too to those terms. The terms I posted above were what both car buyers and Tesla agreed to at the time of purchase.
The same courts that continue to allow the sale of “Full Self Driving”? You have a lot of faith in a system that has aggressively and repeatedly shown that it does not care about you.
There are many legitimate complaints about Full Self Drive. I'm happy to respond to you but which specific complaints about FSD are you referring to?
This website is probably a good start. I mainly object to the “full”, the “self”, and the “driving”.
Edit: but that’s not really the point of the discussion right now, my point t was more that: yes, I agree that’s what some written words on a website say in terms of what they promise, but my point is that they can literally just alter that any time and there is less than zero recourse for the consumer to do anything about it. You can’t disable updates. You signed away your right to sue them. You won’t get anywhere crying to the press because the headline “Tesla breaks promise made to customers” is just another day that ends in Y.
I can absolutely sue Tesla.
Ok, let’s grant that as true (by that I mean we will ignore arbitration as a whole thing). Suddenly Tesla stock drops, again, and they push an update that puts remote unlock and navigation and heated seats behind a subscription requirement to boost revenue. Your car will lose those functions immediately with no input from you. Then you file a lawsuit. You will not be granted an emergency summary judgment. Which means your car will immediately lack those capabilities. Absolute best case scenario in 5-7 years your car will get the features back after it has turned into a pile of rust. The expected outcome is you will get a class action settlement (which again, you actually signed away your rights to) that cuts you a check for a few hundred dollars. That will only happen well after the expected service life of the vehicle you “own”.
If you read this and think I’m just a cynical jerk, please provide me just one example where the individual consumer won a lawsuit in the US against a large vendor when features were removed after a software update and was made whole in a timely manner. Just one is all I ask for.
No need to ignore your arbitration distraction. As a customers you can opt-out of arbitration. I did. I can sue Tesla.
"You may opt out of arbitration within 30 days after signing this Agreement by sending a letter to: Tesla, Inc.; P.O. Box 15430; Fremont, CA 94539-7970, stating your name, Vehicle Identification Number, and intent to opt out of the arbitration provision. If you do not opt out, this agreement to arbitrate overrides any different arbitration agreement between us, including any arbitration agreement in a lease or finance contract." source
The only updates that Tesla pushes out OTA are recall fixes. Other patches are pushed over wifi. If you don't configure wifi, the car won't download patches. I'm currently running 4 patch releases (about 3 months) behind. I know a couple of folks that are intentionally running at a patch level over a year old.
Assuming none of the above applies? Sure. A company can break the law too and no actions undo the lawbreaking the only remedy the justice system can offer is after-the-fact and even then the plaintiffs may not be able to be made whole. I'm not sure what your point is.
Cars don't turn int a pile of rust in 5-7 years, even Tesla cars don't. Do I need to link a used car page showing, now 12 year old, 2012 Tesla cars for sale that aren't piles of rust? Also, I think you're blowing Tesla paid features out of proportion because of what you've heard about other car makers.
Tesla doesn't have subscription or even paid seat heaters with the very rare exception of a short run of Model 3 Standard Range cars, and even then it was just the REAR seat heaters, and even then it was a one-time $300 payment. This is similar to the other much talked about "battery unlock" feature, which again, was only on a short run of cars (4 years ago I think?) that Tesla put a larger battery in the car, but didn't charge customers for it. Later they offered a paid feature for customers to unlock the extra portion of the battery, which Tesla never claimed was there and customer never paid for to begin with. The only other paid features are "acceleration boost" which I didn't pay for so there would be nothing lost.
The "subscription seat heaters" was BMW, not Tesla.
As you point out, most people can't sue Tesla, but I can because I opted-out, so there likely won't be enough people to form a Class to have a Class Action. So if I sued, my case would likely go forward by itself. We started this discussion with the included Tesla Standard Connectivity feature. Since subscribing to Premium Connectivity (priced at $99/year) would be a remedy that is easily converted to dollars, I could even sue in Small Claims Court without a lawyer. The max judgement in Small Claims Court is $6000 (in my state anyway) so since the prior terms say I was entitled to Standard Connectivity for the life of the car, I could sue for 60 years of service and still be inside the claim limit.
Oh noes, somebody said something positive about Tesla! Get 'em boys!
Seriously though, I would like to see some legislation that made them offer connectivity free models. All the connectivity crap should be opt-in. If you don't opt in they don't connect the SIM card.
There will be financial repercussions with the car. They want to sell that data, if you're going to deprive them of that, they'll expect recompense.
Teslas unlimited Internet package is also super cheap at $100/year the last time I checked. Competitors are multiple times more expensive.
The subscriptions is free for the first few years so if you plan on trading it in definitely still worth it. While this does piss me off I still really like my mazda 2020
That's called giving the drugs for free then taking it away so the addiction kicks in. Fuck that noise. Stop justifying it because it's 'free for now'
ISPs do this too..go look for new service, it's a royal pain in the cock trying to find the actual cost before bullshit sales that can be taken away with minutes.
Im not justifying it. In fact, I said that I didn't agree with it. All I'm saying is that in some situations, this shouldn't affect your decision if the car feels right for you. Like other commenters have pointed out, most major manufacturers are pulling the same BS (Which obviously doesn't make it OK) But the free 3 year trial makes it less of a sore spot for some.
Also, there are plenty of aftermarket remote start systems that you could install if you dont want to deal with the expensive OEM solution. This is the case for the majority of additions anyway.
Again, it's not okay, I think it's absolute BS that you have to pay any sort of subscription on a 5-figure purchase, but thinking pragmatically, there are plenty of situations where this is irrelevant.