GoodEye8

Considering how they've released a COD every year for almost 2 decades I'm amazed we're only at BO6.

Oh boy. I'll respond only once and if you throw another wall of text I'm just fucking off.

Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.

Officially it is. I know in practice it isn't but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people. I don't think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.

You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.

Directly responsible? No. Indirectly? Yes. It's like people have no fucking clue what a country is. It doesn't just prop up out of nowhere. Someone somewhere defined a country and when it comes to democracies (even dysfunctional ones like Russia and the US) the people set up the country for themselves. It's their country and whether they like it or not, they are collectively responsible for what their country does. If they're not responsible then who is responsible for the US supporting Israel? The politicians? Who votes the politicians in power? The people. The Lobbyists? The lobbyists lobby to politicians and the politicians get chosen by the people. The masses being stupid and easy to manipulate is a different topic, but it doesn't change that despite collectively making bad decisions the people are making those decisions.

No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice.

It literally is. If it wasn't a choice you couldn't choose to become a citizen of a different state. Your initial citizenship isn't a choice because you're born with it but you're also born with your initial sex, doesn't mean you can't choose a different sex as you grow older.

Because they may have family there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.

And that's their decision to keep their citizenship. Just like it would be my decision if I chose to have a diarrhea takeaway today. Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?

But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible.

I can't believe I took the effort to look up how UK citizenship works but if you're only barely eligible after 15 years you are clearly leaving out some key information. The "don't be poor" part of ILR is kinda stupid so if it's that I get it, but beyond that you shouldn't be barely eligible unless you've sloppy with your visa's or have been regularly traveling in and out of the UK.

And my point is that while getting a citizenship can be difficult, it is not impossible.

No it really doesn’t.

It clearly was vague considering how many other comments are mixing up someone being born in Russia or having Russian heritage with someone actually being Russian. And to point to the exact same wiki page:

As such nationality in international law can be called and understood as citizenship,[35] or more generally as subject or belonging to a sovereign state, and not as ethnicity.

I never said it's easy. I can understand someone keeping their citizenship out of convenience because the process of obtaining a different citizenship is difficult. However, I wouldn't call it impossible. Based on my country the most time-consuming part about getting the citizenship is having to actually live here, which is at least 8 years under the residency permit. The language proficiency test and constitution (and citizenship act) examinations take an effort but are not insurmountable if you're serious about getting a different citizenship. I haven't gone through the process itself because I've never had the need, but based on what the legal requirements are I don't see how that's only for the obscenely rich. If you're permanently settled elsewhere it's a matter of time and effort.

I think my point still stands. If they have the option to choose a different citizenship and they choose not to, that's on them. And when it comes to this specific instance I'm assuming some good will on from the rest of Linux maintainers. Hartman said "They can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided." I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they've passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time, then that should be sufficient documentation to get them back on the list.

I never said I’m willing to give up everything…

Like I said, you're not wiling to do anything beyond being outraged on the web. My argument is very simple. We need to do something about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and that something is supposed to be something that is as inconvenient as it can be to Russia, while being as little of an inconvenience to us. Part of that something is broad strokes sanctions. The more specific you want those sanctions to be the more inconvenient it becomes for us. And by doing nothing you're agreeing with me because you're not willing to inconvenience yourself for those Russians.

You think I'm being simplistic and dangerous, you're the one wanting to have your cake and eat it. I understand that there's a clear trade-off in what you're demanding and I understand that most people, including you, are not actually willing to take that trade-off. You're the one being childish and throwing a tantrum because you're not getting everything you want.

Are you asking what value I give money? What price I put on human lives? If I would give up everything to keep the innocents out of harm?

Then give those maintainers your money to get them out of Russia and help them get a different citizenship so they wouldn't be affected by the sanctions. If you don't have that money start a go-fund-me. After-all you said you'd give up everything to keep the innocent out of harm.

My question isn't about money, it's about how far you're willing to inconvenience yourself to help those unfairly treated Russians. The tax thing is just the bare minimum anyone could do because we're paying taxes anyway. It takes no extra effort on your part, it's just a question of where your tax money gets spent. Your quality of life drops but at least you know the wrong Russian didn't get sanctioned. Is that the inconvenience you're willing to make?

I don't see you making any inconveniences. I don't see you making any effort beyond being outraged on the web. But feel free to prove me wrong.

True, but that's because Linux is kind of in a bind due to this war, but Linux probably benefits more from aligning with the western powers rather than fight for a handful of maintainers. Not that Linus would fight for Russian maintainers.

I’m not a troll but it’s unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.

You're literally avoiding answering the hard questions and instead throw up shit like that moth thing. That is standard troll behavior. Just because you want to believe you're not a troll doesn't mean you aren't one. Go on, prove me wrong, do the non-troll thing and actually answer my questions instead of tip-toeing around them.

A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is the expression of their local communities.

Technically they are. The country is the governing body set up by the people that make up said country. In the case of Russia that government is corrupted and that government is to the detriment to its own people and now also a detriment to the surrounding countries. I am sympathetic to the struggles of the average Russian, but unlike you I don't live in la-la land where everyone gets to have and eat their cake. They've let their country slip into corruption and ultimately that is on them because we can't fix that without an even greater conflict. They've let their government get corrupted and the actions of that corrupt government has brought sanctions upon them.

And I get that not all of them are to blame, but we get back to the questions you deliberately avoided. Are we not supposed to sanction Russia and let them have their way with Ukraine? If we should sanction Russia and there is a costly way to make sure those sanctions wouldn't overreach, do you want your tax money to be spent essentially on the well-being of Russians. Even if you know you're likely to gain little to no benefit from that spending?

There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.

So it's literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you're still outraged about it?

Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?

I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.

I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.

Okay, but that's irrelevant. I simply pointed at Japanese citizenship because your brought up Japan. The compromise was between keeping US citizenship to take care of your parents vs renouncing the US citizenship to do the thing you want to do. And you compromised to take care of your parents. That is a decision you would make.

So why are you defending the Russians abroad who have decided to keep their Russian citizenship? They also have a choice between keeping the Russian citizenship and fall under sanctions or renounce their citizenship and not fall under sanctions. It's their decision to make.

As for Russians within Russia. Sad to say but they're fucked regardless. I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems. And as I pointed out in my other comment, would you be willing to spend your tax dollars to make sure the right Russians get sanctioned instead of spending those tax dollars in a way that would benefit you?

I'll ask differently. Let's just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it's going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn't be sanctioned?

And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).

I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:

even of people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine

Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What's their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?

So hypothetically let's say there's a project or a job or anything of the sorts that you personally want to do, and that something requires that you're not an US citizenship. I assume you'd stick with your parents and not get a Japanese citizenship. Would you accept that as the compromise you personally have to make (choosing the wellbeing of your parents over the thing you want to do) or would you complain that you're being treated unfairly?

So what are we supposed to do?

Not sanction Russia?

Apply sanctions on an individual basis?

EDIT: Nothing of value down below, just me and someone who only wants to be outraged. Delve deeper of your own accord.