OpenStars

joined 11 months ago
[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 14 points 5 months ago (10 children)

It affects people who think that Lemmy.ml is the default instance, as it says itself and people say that any instance is fine to join.

It also affects people in the batshit insane comments that come from people on that instance, like lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net, that occur with noticeably higher frequency than from other places.

It also affects people on that instance who talk as if into a void with many people blocking their instance but they don't even know that. And that effect will increase over time.

It lowers traffic on the Fediverse, decreasing overall engagement, and drives people away from it altogether. It also lowers the likelihood that you can recommend to people irl to check out the Fediverse - when THAT stuff (e.g. defense of genocide) is seen it tends to turn people off who aren't used to it or who are tech or culture savvy enough to know how to handle it.

So it does affect you, I promise, even if not directly, and over the next few months will do so increasingly as your instance turns into more of an echo chamber than it has been in the past, as more people block it either individually or at an instance level.

Agreed that many of the users are regular people who are just innocently getting swept up in all of this due to the actions of the admins. Just like users of Reddit were when spez did his power flex moves.

You might want to at least make an alt somewhere else so that you get some experiences that your .ml account increasingly will start to lack.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (8 children)

But that's what's happening now? They broke their own rules - not merely removing comments, but also mass-banning from communities people have never commented in before, and then deleting the mod log entries afterwards. The former is not ideal but expected, the middle is... extremely excessive and warrants all of this right there alone, but the latter bumps the whole matter up significantly to be outright disingenuous, so that "that side" making its case is no longer expected to yield any results, given the not only manipulative but outright deceptive practices that have been (allegedly) proven.

I do worry about the use of a pejorative term though. In thinking about it more, I waffle back and forth between it should never be done, vs. whether someone can "earn" that badge not by holding a belief but by their actions?

We should definitely respect their contributions to the code and actually I would guess that they may legit believe that what they are doing (supporting China by suppression of alternate viewpoints, using any means necessary including ones that violate and abuse their own code of conduct) is right. But that does not make it so.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 5 points 5 months ago

I mentioned elsewhere but here's a copy and paste:

It is far more than just that. Removing comments is one thing, mass-banning from many communities at once despite never even having commented in them at all is another, but the real issue is using database manipulation to delete the log entries as to why the comments were removed after the fact.

Even if unintentional, which strains credulity, this is some spez-level stuff going on, where we have the option to either take what a single person (who does not seem inclined to follow their own stated rules) offers, or else we can leave. Many are choosing the latter, and like the Rexodus, making the situation known to others as well in the process.

“Criticizing China” was merely the spark that lit the match, with the situation offering proof of what apparently people have been suspecting for some time now.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (19 children)

It is far more than just that. Removing comments is one thing, mass-banning from many communities at once despite never even having commented in them at all is another, but the real issue is using database manipulation to delete the log entries as to why the comments were removed after the fact.

Even if unintentional, which strains credulity, this is some spez-level stuff going on, edit: where we have the option to either take what a single person (who does not seem inclined to follow their own stated rules) offers, or else we can leave. Many are choosing the latter, and like the Rexodus, making the situation known to others as well in the process.

"Criticizing China" was merely the spark that lit the match, with the situation offering proof of what apparently people have been suspecting for some time now.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 3 points 5 months ago

Feel free to be the change you want to see. You are telling OP to stfu about their issues and simply move on rather than complain, yet you seem to be doing the opposite of that yourself, hrm...

If you meant something otherwise, it was not explained well imho.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 18 points 5 months ago (7 children)

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to say that I see you going to such great efforts to help people all across the entire Fediverse, and to say thank you - we appreciate you!:-)

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 9 points 5 months ago

I gave up on the Kbin/Mbin style entirely - it sounds nice to Federate with both Lemmy and Mastodon, but I don't like the interface.

Can you not do personal user instance blocks like you can in Lemmy as of v0.19.3 half a year ago? That would be an absolute deal breaker for me too. On Kbin.social though it was not an issue bc they were defederated at the instance level.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 4 points 5 months ago

Exactly - I'm 💯% okay with them living their best life, probably I shouldn't be but I just am, so long as they don't spill out and then infect others with their BS antics (which inevitably seems will happen when they are allowed to incubate like that, self- reinforcing that that behavior is "okay").

But I am also concerned about new potential Fedizens - like is this a place that I can keep recommending to other human beings, or will they see that and just nope out? As I almost did myself bc all of it - lemmygrad.ml, hexbear.net, and apparently the admins at least of lemmy.ml - it's just so fucking much for a new person to take. Someone who is versed enough in Federation matters can deal with it, but for those who cannot yet distinguish between what makes us great and those sources of toxicity horrible, it all will blend together into a big grey bucket of suck.

As ironically the comments to that post on hexbear I linked said too - they (the ones who weren't outright leaving as a result of that decision) were calling for stricter moderation practices bc they were aware that the lack of that was giving hexbear a bad name. And now here we are too, saying similarly at the next higher level up of the Fediverse itself as a whole.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 9 points 5 months ago

People are working on alternatives - Ernst started Kbin and then kinda got stuck in it but refused to allow others to help so a community fork Mbin was created, and sublinks will eventually exist as well. However, this stuff takes time. You can help by contributing code or funds or activity to one of those if you like.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 14 points 5 months ago

We all have to wrestle with those ethics ourselves, but fwiw most of us have come down to the idea that writing code is one thing whereas administering an instance is something else altogether. People are working on other implementations of the ActivityPub protocol e.g. Kbin, its community fork Mbin, and things like sublinks that doesn't fully exist yet.

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Best to read it in their own words. That post really makes it clear how (in their own POV) other places should be linked to from hexbear solely for the purpose of making fun of them, and possibly to increase their engagement stats e.g. upvoting b/c otherwise it gets lonely just being on hexbear.net all by themselves. The only time they acknowledge the effects that THEY, the users on hexbear, have on OTHER communities is to state how fun it is to "[have the opportunity to] dunk on these lost [ones]".

They are aware, and are even happy with how they are, and not only do they not mind being defederated, but they preemptively are defederating themselves from other places, as they said "As an admin team we have never wanted to prioritize growth". They are an instance by and for people who enjoy making fun of others.

But don't stop there: the comment section is where the real fun is at, and/or you can do the maths yourself too:-). e.g., they point out how the admins went to all the trouble to collect those votes, then threw them in the garbage and did the precise opposite of what the votes wanted and instead defederated anyway. Look at lemm.ee for instance at 41:4, that's 91.1% for remaining federated and only 4 total votes, 8.9%, for defederation. aussie.zone was likewise 27 for vs. only 19 against, and programming.dev 27 for vs. 19 against - but they defederated from them all, despite how the (quite noticeable) majority of voters in each case indicated that they wanted them to remain federated.

In contrast, those other instances like programming.dev defederated from hexbear.net too, but only for purely technical reasons to avoid confusion by users not knowing the intricacies of how federation works - in their own words: "Weve added them to our blocklist as well so theres no one way conversations".

TLDR: hexbear.net is not a "nice" place to visit - go there if you want, but like 4chan it's not generally considered something that you want to stumble upon by accident, and it's definitely not something that most people on the Fediverse want. I almost quit the Fediverse myself entirely after making the mistake of ~~posting~~ (edit: commenting) there, but fortunately for me v0.19.3 came out and I could instead simply block hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml and now I enjoy being here:-).

[–] OpenStars@discuss.online 17 points 5 months ago

And lemmygrad.ml too, though most instances seem to do that by default now (yours has, as well as hexbear.net too:-).

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