this post was submitted on 02 May 2024
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Google is laying off more employees and hiring for their roles outside of the U.S.

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[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago (4 children)

First, unions don’t prevent mass layoffs. They might help make things more manageable and help some individuals in need but layoffs are entirely at the discretion of the business.

And second, the industry is contracting because it hasn’t innovated in more than 5 years now. There is no growth vector but loads of people who aren’t producing value (not their fault, there is nothing to produce). Of course, better protection for employees is always needed, but as someone who watched an european company reduce its workforce from 110k people to 19k over the course of 3 years in early 2010s, i can guarantee that nothing can stop a business from maximizing profits.

This is what we’re seeing now: the work is simply not needed.

[–] MentalGymnastics@sh.itjust.works 23 points 6 months ago (1 children)

They'll say the work is not needed. That's because the workload gets pushed to whoever is left. Is there a way you go from 110k employees to 20k and have no workload increase at all without some suffering some deficiencies somewhere in the product. Doubt it.

Another thing is who decides what the employees work on. "Industry hasn't innovated in x years" okay that's on CEO/management they decide what products to invest time in. It seems all that's left are barbarians in these companies. Possibly the visionaries have long been layed off it seems?

[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

They’ll say the work is not needed.

because it isn’t. Product lines which were supposed to grow and bring profit have become stagnant and useless. E.g. Alexa which was supposed to help amazon convince people to buy stuff but instead plays music in the morning. Normally there would be another growing sector to relocate the more overstaffed department but there isn’t. So.

Is there a way you go from 110k employees to 20k and have no workload increase at all without some suffering some deficiencies somewhere in the product. Doubt it.

That was done through closing down branches of the company which weren’t performing and automation in the rest. It wasn’t painless, far from it, but the point was that unions couldn’t stop it, not that it was fair or nice.

Another thing is who decides what the employees work on. “Industry hasn’t innovated in x years” okay that’s on CEO/management they decide what products to invest time in. It seems all that’s left are barbarians in these companies. Possibly the visionaries have long been layed off it seems?

sure, but what difference does it make? Yes, the stagnant technology market is directly the result of bad policies and poor investment. But that doesn’t help with the layoffs. That just is.

[–] MentalGymnastics@sh.itjust.works 6 points 6 months ago

Normally there would be another growing sector to relocate the more overstaffed department but there isn’t.

Knowing Amazon quite well, there definitely are sectors that are seriously deficient even new emerging ones within Amazon seem deficient.

It wasn’t painless, far from it, but the point was that unions couldn’t stop it, not that it was fair or nice.

I agree it wasn't painless in fact there is a high suicide rate within the computer sciences field. In fact it probably still isn't painless. I also agree unions are useless but some government regulation wouldn't be.

That just is.

Yea everything is. Until it isn't.

[–] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

First, unions don’t prevent mass layoffs. They might help make things more manageable and help some individuals in need but layoffs are entirely at the discretion of the business.


"There are several ways that unionization’s impact on wages goes beyond the workers covered by collec- tive bargaining to affect nonunion wages and labor practices. For example, in industries and occupations where a strong core of workplaces are unionized, nonunion employers will frequently meet union standards or, at least, improve their compensation and labor practices beyond what they would have provided if there were no union presence. This dynamic is sometimes called the “union threat effect,” the degree to which nonunion workers get paid more because their employers are trying to forestall unionization.

There is a more general mechanism (without any specific “threat”) in which unions have affected nonunion pay and practices: unions have set norms and established practices that become more generalized throughout the economy, thereby improving pay and working conditions for the entire workforce. This has been especially true for the 75% of workers who are not college educated. Many “fringe” benefits, such as pensions and health insurance, were first provided in the union sector and then became more generalized—though, as we have seen, not universal. Union grievance procedures, which provide “due process” in the workplace, have been mimicked in many nonunion workplaces. Union wage- setting, which has gained exposure through media coverage, has frequently established standards of what workers generally, including many nonunion workers, expect from their employers. Until, the mid-1980s, in fact, many sectors of the economy followed the “pattern” set in collective bargaining agreements. As unions weakened, especially in the manufacturing sector, their ability to set broader patterns has diminished. However, unions remain a source of innovation in work practices (e.g., training, worker participation) and in benefits (e.g., child care, work-time flexibility, sick leave)."

https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/

https://files.epi.org/page/-/old/briefingpapers/143/bp143.pdf


i can guarantee that nothing can stop a business from maximizing profits.

You are not a union, you cannot stop a business from doing anything, together with your fellow workers however you can dictate anything about the behavior of your company that you and your fellow workers feel sufficiently passionate about enough to fight for.

And second, the industry is contracting because it hasn’t innovated in more than 5 years now.

Why should an industry bother innovating to increase dividends to shareholders with expensive and risky new technological ventures when it can just keep slashing labor costs and crushing employees under their foot? There is no economic incentive to innovate when unions don't have the power to make executives think about choosing other less difficult paths than trying to directly reduce the quality of life of the companies employees.

[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world -3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

you can dictate anything about the behavior of your company that you and your fellow workers feel sufficiently passionate about enough to fight for.

no! That’s not how unions work in capitalism. A union can’t decide the business side of things. There’s a clear separation of responsibilities. There are, of course, other types of societies in which workers have this power, but then there’s not real point in debating the role of the union in that completely different context.

There is no economic incentive to innovate when unions don’t have the power to make executives think about choosing other less difficult paths than trying to directly reduce the quality of life of the companies employees.

Union-lead society wide innovation for the sake of the current workforce is probably the dumbest thing i’ve read in a while.

[–] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

no! That’s not how unions work in capitalism. A union can’t decide the business side of things. There’s a clear separation of responsibilities

Ahahahaha right, I love how you just accept the legally defined rights of what a union can do and what it can’t as if those laws in any given country aren't just a record of the battlefield between the working class and the ruling class. A union can do whatever the fuck a union wants to do, and the law will attempt to constrain it in favor of the ruling class and capitalists to the degree that is politically tenable in a given environment. Sometimes it will be successful, sometimes it will fail, but unions fundamentally exist outside of capitalism because they have a level of legitimacy that capitalism and the idea of owning other people's labor will never have.

It hardly needs to be said that like libraries, if unions didn’t already exist as a concept there is no way they would be legal at all if they were developed in this day and age. Unions are only ever temporarily legal along limited contexts under capitalism.

Union-lead society wide innovation for the sake of the current workforce is probably the dumbest thing i’ve read in a while.

high five solidarity my friend, even when you insult my intelligence you are still far more my friend than my boss will ever be

[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world -2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Sorry, i wasn’t aware you were advocating for Anarcho-syndicalism. I thought we were having a conversation in good faith about the current situation. Good luck with your revolution

[–] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago
[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Hey bud, if you cant imagine a world without [oppression] please step aside. The rest of us have work to do to end the violence. We know it's time.

[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The rest of us have work to do to end the violence.

I cannot imagine a world without oppression, this is true. However, I grew up long ago in a world where oppression came from those who said they'd overthrow it last time. They were using the same ideas you flaunt around and much like you (or whomever the person I was talking to before was), they had superficial understanding of what they were advocating for.

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

What a boring, tired attempt.

Sarcasm: Oh well, better just throw our hands up and allow right wing authoritarians to pursue their narrow minded cycles of exploitation and heirarchal domination. /s

In fact, organizing non-heirarchal is quite proven. Doing so on a scale we're discussing, and Truly Breaking the Cycle of the Planetary Work Machine well, see for yourself, there's more imagining to do.

Are You An Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You

[–] PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks 2 points 6 months ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

Truly Breaking the Cycle of the Planetary Work Machine

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[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

am attempt at what? not everyone has a hidden agenda, who are you talking to?

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Noone is accusing you of the very obvious, beligerent actions of the right wing authoritarians who ceaselessly perpetrate moral panics using fear based propaganda to consolidate their power.

Anyway, Andrewism's latest video directly addresses your originally expressed concern:

https://youtu.be/lrTzjaXskUU?t=2634

It is not the single, momentous tsunami that shapes the coast, but rather the many small waves that erode the land with time.

In short, a social revolution that “seeks to alter the whole character of society.” But what does that mean? People typically envision some massive uprising in the future akin to popular media’s depictions of the French Revolution, BUT in reality, as anarchists use the term, social revolution refers to an ongoing and intentional transformation of our society, economy, culture, philosophy, technology, relationships, and politics.

It is not starting from scratch, but rather utilising the shell of the old to build the new, taking on a conscious engagement with current conditions and using the means that are compatible with desired ends.

That process might be punctuated with flashy moments where leaps and bounds may be achieved, but much of the real foundations of anarchy are established in the interludes between insurrections.

It is not the single, momentous tsunami that shapes the coast, but rather the many small waves that erode the land with time.

The process of social revolution involves acts of confrontation, such as occupation and expropriation; acts of noncooperation, such as strikes and boycotts; and acts of prefiguration, such as establishing spaces of encounter, free schools, and alternative economies.

If such efforts are effectively networked, they can grow large enough to practically counter the all-encompassing idea and experience of many that there is no alternative to capitalism and the State.

I still recommend my video on the topic for a full explanation, with the obvious caveat that I would now challenge my consensus- and democracy-limited depiction of popular assemblies and cooperatives as a misrepresentation or needless restriction of anarchy, which can be more accurately...

Not some tsunami to be scaremongered, but the regrowing of dormant ability to self-govern, which requires us to heal and educate from so many woundings and ills, misinformation and disinformation 🫶

[–] PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks 2 points 6 months ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

https://piped.video/lrTzjaXskUU?t=2634

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Anyway, Andrewism’s latest video directly addresses your originally expressed concern

Oh yes, somebody without any formal education on the subject and no credentials whatsoever except the fact that they have a face to put on a vide is the perfect person to quote here. Well done.

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

It seems you have a vested interest in discrediting and disencouraging anyone from imagining or exploring all the ways in which a better world is possible. How peculiar.

[–] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

You can imagine whatever you wish, but quoting random people is just stupid when you have access to actual research (incidentally the same material used by those nobodies in a twisted way to manipulate you). Get out of the youtube rabbit hole, there are no rabbits at the end of it.

[–] VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

The many cited publications and texts found within say otherwise =)

[–] Veraxus@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Layoffs really need to trigger instant strikes. It boggles my mind that it's not something they negotiate and protect. "No layoffs without prior negotiation and approval of severance terms by vote." Break the terms... instant strike.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

i can guarantee that nothing can stop a business from maximizing profits.

Sure, it can, because I'm going to blow your mind: businesses aren't about maximizing profits. It is ultimately about power, and money is a path to power. There are sometimes conflicts between power and money, though, and when there are, you can tell what they actually care about.

None of the recent layoffs at Tesla make any sense what so ever. The Supercharger network may be the company's best long term asset--they just got most of the industry to adopt their plug, and they have the largest existing network to support all those new EVs--yet they just canned the entire Supercharger team. The Cybertuck may be a dumb vehicle, but it's still sold out for the next year, and shrinking the production line isn't going to help anything. Nor would it help sell more of any other models. A $25k Tesla would be a game changer in a market that the rest of the industry hasn't really entered yet, but they just canned development on new models.

All while the company is still churning some kind of profit, even if it's not as high as it was. These layoffs will absolutely have a long term impact on Tesla's ability to compete at exactly the time when the rest of the industry is catching up with them.

Does it even improve stock price? Maybe a one day jump or one week jump, but TSLA has been mostly flat for the last year and doesn't look like it's going to return to growth. Only bright side is that its P/E ratio now looks almost reasonable.

None of this makes sense in terms of money. Barely does anything in the short term, and the long term damage is huge. This might be the beginning of the end of Tesla.

If it doesn't make sense in terms of money, then what else would work in that slot? Power.

[–] Veraxus@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Wealth (whether it be "money", resources, or anything else) and power are one and the same. Two sides of the same coin. Either one provides access to the other. I don't think of them as separate or distinct at all... which is why it's problematic for the aristocratic hoarders when plebes start to pool either and work collectively.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Oh, no, they're not exactly the same. They wouldn't come into conflict if they were the same.

As another example, unions. Employees often see issues early on; perhaps a machine needing maintenance. A union can bring this up to management and put the pressure on to get it done. The business will save money in the long run with machines in proper maintenance.

If it doesn't get done, best case scenario is that it fails and the whole production line is shot until it's fixed. Worst case, it fails more catastrophically and damages other equipment, or injures workers.

Despite plenty of stories like this, companies will fight unionization efforts every time. Why? Because money doesn't always align with power.

[–] Veraxus@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Maybe something is getting lost in translation, but none of the things you mentioned seem to have anything to do with the point I'm making... so your ending claim that "money doesn't always align with power" doesn't seem related to anything I said or the scenario you posed...?

[–] frezik@midwest.social 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

"Wealth and power are exactly the same". This is the claim I'm disputing. If there are places where money and power are in conflict, then they can't be the same. Your analysis of a situation will be have holes in it if this is not considered.

[–] Veraxus@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

If you’d care to dive deeper I’d like to be challenged on this; but your previous example of “maintaining things can avoid unnecessary costs later” (as I understand it) doesn’t have anything to do with “money and power can be in conflict”.

[–] Jax@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Shortsightedness driven by greed does not, in any way, negate money equaling power.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Then let me attack it from a different direction: can you have power in a society that does not have money?

[–] Jax@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Within that isolated society? Sure.

If your goal was to argue semantics then I don't know why I'm entertaining this. Yes, in an imaginary society that is 1) somehow not influenced by modern society and 2) somehow also avoids currency - power dynamics will obviously take different shapes.

Do you realize how meaningless that example is?

[–] frezik@midwest.social 1 points 6 months ago

I'm working outword to find a path in.

If a society can have power without money, then can the two overlap perfectly in any society?

To use a more concrete example, how do unions ever have power in our society? They tend not to have money, or at least very little in proportion to the business owners.