Because none of those points matter to the average user.
this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2024
251 points (96.3% liked)
Fediverse
28444 readers
825 users here now
A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).
If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to !moderators@lemmy.world!
Rules
- Posts must be on topic.
- Be respectful of others.
- Cite the sources used for graphs and other statistics.
- Follow the general Lemmy.world rules.
Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration), Search Lemmy
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Because centralized services are easier to use.
This exactly. I didn't join Lemmy for a long time, because I would search for "Lemmy", get confused when I see a page asking me to "pick an instance" instead of seeing a front page, and then leave because I thought that they were all independent from each other.
It wasn't until reddit killed my favorite app that I finally decided to put in the effort to figure it out.
I'm running my own PDS on the AT Protocol 🤷♂️
At least for Japanese users, they want to see content they love from creators relevant to them. Creators = illustrator, comic artist, photographer, cosplayer, writer, etc.
Creators want a stable platform that allows them to widen their reach and potentially making more money.
Mastodon at the moment are tend to be hostile against creators that wants to monetize their work. Not to forget, the creator you want to follow are on defederated or blocks your instance for random admin drama.
But hey, at least fediverse software like Misskey actually trying to serve these community. Like allowing community ads (like promoting indie comics, vtuber, or social event) and trying to be stable by resolving any potential instance problem together with zero drama. Misskey community also often have tendency to "decoupling from Western tech supremacy"
People want a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. They want Twitter without Musk.
Bluesky is a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. It is Twitter without Musk.
It looks exactly like Twitter, it feels exactly like Twitter (both the Web interface and the official app), and it's for tech-illiterate dumb-dumbs.
Only recently has an instance selector been added to the sign-up process of the official app, but Bluesky still markets itself to its users as the self-same kind of centralised monolithic silo as Twitter and Facebook.
Mastodon has a vastly different UI and UX from immediate pre-Musk Twitter, but people don't want to learn anything new. And truth be told, I've read from Misskey/Forkey users that Misskey and the Forkeys actually have an easier-to-use Web UI than Mastodon.
Also, Mastodon advertises the fact that it's decentralised with lots of instances to choose from, even though the gGmbH would rather want everyone to be on mastodon.social. This freaks people out.
Joining Mastodon is actually no more difficult than joining Bluesky in practice because the official app railroads everyone to mastodon.social without forcing them. But people won't know until they've actually installed and opened that app.
The only reason why Mastodon grew so quickly to such an enormous size in late 2022 was because it was the only alternative to Twitter that anyone knew, including those who pulled Twitter users onto Mastodon. The only other advantage it had over anything else was that, unlike Twitter, it didn't have Musk and uncontained droves of Nazis. Had people been sent to Akkoma or Calckey instead of Mastodon, it would have exploded the same.
Inb4 "How can people use e-mail then?" That's because everyone's on Gmail, and many think e-mail is a proprietary Google product.
I’ve read from Misskey/Forkey users that Misskey and the Forkeys actually have an easier-to-use Web UI than Mastodon
The *keys have a UI that has a similar design language to Twitter, but a fairly different layout. I think it's close enough that people would recognize it as "Twitter, but different", vs Mastodon's "Twitter, but archaic, and also different, and therefore confusing".
The *keys also had many of the features that Twitter migrants complained were lacking from Mastodon. But trying to talk to anyone on Mastodon about platforms that aren't Mastodon was a total non-starter. Mastodon is a giant Mastodon circle jerk.
It made my soul sad.
But the real issue with Mastodon is that it has a significant population of people who believe it's a sacrosanct cultural space, and that are very vocal about telling anyone coming into it that they need to learn the local customs or GTFO. The push-and-pull between "we want to be mainstream" and also "fuck the mainstream normies" is palpable, and super cringey, and it turns people away quickly.
The *keys also had many of the features that Twitter migrants complained were lacking from Mastodon. But trying to talk to anyone on Mastodon about platforms that aren’t Mastodon was a total non-starter. Mastodon is a giant Mastodon circle jerk.
If you see someone tell Mastodon users that the Fediverse isn't Mastodon, they're hardly ever on Mastodon themselves. They're most likely on Friendica which suffers the most from obnoxious Mastodon users, and if not, they're likely to be on Firefish or Akkoma or sometimes on Hubzilla.
The most extreme case I've encountered was a Mastodon developer who tried to convince me, a Hubzilla veteran, that Mastodon is literally the only feature-complete project in the Fediverse. Fortunately for him, I didn't ask him about full text formatting support, permissions, nomadic identity, multiple independent identities on one login, WebDAV/CalDAV/CardDAV or a built-in wiki engine.
But the real issue with Mastodon is that it has a significant population of people who believe it’s a sacrosanct cultural space, and that are very vocal about telling anyone coming into it that they need to learn the local customs or GTFO.
Worse yet, "coming into it" is also applied to everything in the Fediverse that isn't Mastodon. After learning that there's, in fact, more than Mastodon in the Fediverse, many Mastodon users still think Eugen Rochko has invented the Fediverse, and everything must have come after Mastodon.
Thus, even Friendica users who have been around since before Mastodon even saw its very first release are being forced to ditch Friendica's own culture, adopt Mastodon's culture instead and stop using all of Friendica's features that Mastodon doesn't have. And Friendica is five and a half years older than Mastodon. It has its own well-defined culture which is very different from Mastodon's because Friendica is so much different from Mastodon.
It's almost like European colonists vs natives, only that the European colonists didn't assume the natives had entered the previously completely uninhabited land after them.
load more comments
(1 replies)
I remember the “big movement” when Twitter turned into a right wing cesspool.
At first, the biggest problem was that there were TWO main alternatives: Mastodon and Bluesky. So those who left split into two groups, ending up with a dead timeline, missing out on news. (I and my “bubble” use it to keep up with Covid vaccines, politics, safety etc.)
I joined the Mastodon group, because it solves the problem of a single crazy billionaire potentially buying & enshittifying it. But I fully admit that it is not user friendly at all. People who are not in IT just want it to WORK, like Twitter used to. They don’t want to “educate themselves” about servers, fediverse and networks. The user experience clearly hasn’t even been a thing. It’s techies writing software for themselves. What it needs is a full analysis of the experience from the start: Who are you, user, why are you considering Mastodon, what are your expectations, what are the experiences in the first 30 seconds after entering “mastadon” (oh, you misspelled it?) or “twitter alternative” into a search engine, etc. “pick an instance” is already the passive-aggressive demand nobody wants to hear.
In the end, my instance was shut down without a fair warning, all the reconnected and new contacts lost, no option to move. Trying Bluesky now, but many stayed at Twitter (now X), moved to Mastodon with or without success (most onto my dead instance), or gave up on microblogging.
I think we need something simple again. I remember what SUSE did for Linux in the 90s. Linux users were all like: Only debian is even somewhat useable, but if you should really do LFS. Non-techies willing to switch for “political” or other reasons were hit in the face with “Pick a distro!!!”. SUSE has been called “the Windows among the Linux distros” by those people, but it did the right thing. It provided exactly the simplification we needed: “This is Linux, you simply buy it on CD in a retail store like your other software, you run the installer.” It was a good thing.
IRC is the one good old thing that still works great. When they tried to enshittify freenode, we just moved, collectively. Many non-IT channels & servers died after 2010, though.
The "just pick an instance!" and "my instance shut down" thing is a core pain point here.
BlueSky is corporately run, and it's semi-centealized. This is bad for the internet, but it's good for the user. At least on the surface. And that's what users care about. It provides a sense of stability, and an umspoken promise that if anything happens, it's the company's fault, and the company's problem.
The fediverse is run by hobbiests. You join some hobbiest's forum or microblog, it connects to a bunch of other hobbiest's forums or microblogs, and if things break, oh well, it's just a hobby! And if that hobby becomes stressful for the hobbiest, they just abandon the hobby.
Leaving the users holding the bag.
The fediverse is unstable as an end user, because, as it's currently structured, it's not really designed to have end users. It's designed to have hobbiest tinkerers. It's right in the oft repeated motto of tne of the fediverse: users should own their data!
But who owns the data in the fediverse? Who actually controls it?
Server admins.
You own your data by self-hosting.
Like a giant computer nerd.
The people leaving Twitter right now want Twitter minus Elon. That's Bluesky. They've heard a couple of their Twitter follows mention it and they've gone to their app store where they find an app called Bluesky, install it and easily join and start using it. Once they do they are finding it pretty straightforward to find people they used to follow on Twitter.
That's all people want.
Average users do not even remotely care about federated software and/or decentralisation. That is techno-babble to them and their eyes will glaze over if you try to market that to them.
That being said: Mastodon does a shit job at explaining how it works, how to use it, and what its advantages are. The Joinmastodon landing page just assumes you already know how a fair bit about instances work and what federated software is and does a very poor job explaining it. And even then, most users won't care either way. They just want to click a Join button and be done.
That's exactly what drove me into seeking out Lemmy instead. I hopped on Mastodon and it made me feel like I was being coralled into following some niche hobby forum exclusively, and I wasn't into that. It didn't explain that the instance itself was largely irrelevant and that the rest of the platform would open up to me after choosing one.
Lemmy still had a learning curve, but having experience with reddit I was able to pick it up easily enough.
Interest in hobbies related to commercial brands (following sports, movie franchises, etc.)
When you even mention that you'd like to follow brand accounts, people start shouting at you how commercial scum needs to be banned/defederated.
Of course people move to platforms where their interests are represented.
because bsky actually listened to their users and implemented features they asked for unlike mastodon who attacked migrators during the first twitter migration.
bsky also had a bunch of marginalised people - including trans people - as early adopters that helped shape their views on moderation.
because bsky actually listened to their users and implemented features they asked for unlike mastodon who attacked migrators during the first twitter migration.
The issue I have with this narrative is that the features migrators wanted already existed in the Fediverse, on Misskey, Friendica, Pleroma, Akkoma, etc. If anyone wanted to actually listen to those of us trying to point them to those options, things might have been a little different. But those voices were drowned out by the Mastodon circle jerk, and people didn't actually grok the whole federation thing well enough to understand that they could follow the same people from any of the different softwareseseses.
The fediverse isn't Mastodon, and we all do it a huge disservice by continuing to talk about it as if it were, even as we use a different fediverse platform.
This article gives a good view from an average user's perspective.
The platform is decentralized and has community ran servers.
For most people that's a complication, not a bonus.
It's the path of least resistance to achieve Musklessness. The second two of the positives you listed are actually negatives to the average Joe. Choice paralysis, overwhelming number of apps and servers, these are things that put people off even trying, especially if there are easier-to-use alternatives that are familiar and instant.
Mastodon is great, but it's not quite there yet in terms of convenience. Too much copying and pasting and clicking through to different instances in order to read old posts etc. It needs to be more cohesive in a way that doesn't require constantly leaving your timeline or going into the settings.
It's also the case that the Twitter diaspora who are famous tend to choose BlueSky, and that brings a lot of people along with them.
And it's also the case that Mastodon doesn't have much of a marketing campaign outside of word-of-mouth, whereas BlueSky does.
load more comments
(1 replies)
I honestly can't wrap my head around how to use Mastodon. Idk how to search for things that would interest me.
I'm just glad Lemmy exists.
Search for hashtags. And from that, follow people and hashtags.
Easy enough? (I hope so. I can't explain it easier but if you need it...)
install mastodon
Pick an instance
Hit up all
giant penis
That's why. That's the reason.
but you could review the instance beforehand...
Is Jimbo Normalman going to review the instance beforehand? Lmao.
There's a high amount of friction to get people to join the Fediverse. I had to put in more effort than I'd like to figure out how things worked.
My biggest worry was picking the wrong Mastodon instance and then having no easy way to migrate my stuff to another server. Even after you pick your instance, there's so much setup for things that you kinda just expect to work.
load more comments
(1 replies)
It's just easier. I have both but I almost never use Mastodon anymore. Federation there doesn't seem to work right. I didn't know what an instance was so I joined mastodon.social. Finding and following people in the app doesn't always seem to work right if they're on another instance. Doing it in a browser is even more painful.
The people I liked to follow and interact with on X, many tried Mastodon and abandoned it, and many more are now on Bluesky. This creates momentum to "follow the crowd" as it were.
Additionally, you only have one chance to make a first impression. A lot of us tried Mastodon earlier and it wasn't ready. Bluesky started as invite-only, which drummed up interest before catching this zeitgeist of people leaving X.
Lastly, and maybe it's just me, but the font sizing on the official Mastodon app on Android is generally too small and can't be changed. Bluesky allows me to change it and make it more comfortable to use.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Because they liked Twitter, and Bluesky is (presumably) like Twitter before Elmo bought it.
Because BlueSky will get them more engagement than Mastodon.
I don't know. But one potential advantage of bsky over mastodon is the data and real account migration capability between instances.
Also bsky is run by a company and overall infra is better than most community instances of mastodon, so people will see better performance and more ad/pr visibility of the platform.
I tried bluesky (bs?) for 5 minutes. Clicked one thing, saw the comment "Sunsets are my love language," and realized that these are not my people.
I'm sure a certain percentage of people can't spell mastodon.
You want the bullshit "Mastodon is too complicated and hard to use!" answer or the real answer?
BlueSky has rich people behind it.
They're the same answer.
You need money to market applications to users. Bluesky is sold the same way that Twitter is, your favorite moron celebrity might hit like or retweet on your stuff.
They aren't really the same answer.
People suggest that Mastodon is too complicated for the average knuckle-dragging moron to use (and it might be, but frankly I consider that a pro, not a con) because it has "servers", as if the entire point of the internet wasn't to have a global network of communication across a multitude of clients and servers. Do these same people think the concept of websites and email are also too complex for the regular person? Maybe... But again, if the regular person is that fucking dumb do we really want have them in our community at all?
What's more, BlueSky is supposedly federated (or "will be"(tm)), and as such it'll have to deal with all of the same challenges around federation that Mastodon deals with, and people are kidding themselves if they think otherwise.
Otherwise I agree with your last sentence. Social media is about money and fame, first and foremost. The average person will always go where the most money and fame are concentrated.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Because most people don't exactly want a community-led social platform that respects you and empowers user freedom, even if some say they do.
Bluesky is promising a Twitter-like experience. They promote their ties to the former Twitter, and promise algorithms, dopamine-inducing "reach" and "engagement", paid subscriptions, some degree of centralized control (primarily of the network's infrastructure), and a for-profit VC-funded company, all under the guise of federation. They claim a mastodon-like brand that they are yet to deliver.
Because most people don't exactly want a community-led social platform that respects you and empowers user freedom, even if some say they do.
Get off your high horse. I work for a software company, regularly participate in beta testing and am very tech literate. Mastodon was agitating to use when I signed up and not intuitive. The community I signed up in also deleted my account during a “whoopsie”. A terrible experience drove me off with no desire to go back for such a tiny and relatively stagnate user base on an unstable platform. If that was my experience, the average person will absolutely not like Mastodon.
Your complaint is about an unknown instance admin committing a maintenance mistake. Will bluesky's promised federation protect against that? You could join an instance managed by a well funded public entity if you want something that gets close to VC-funding. (which aren't that reliable either. Look how many of these start-up platforms go away)
See this is part of the problem.
Dude was like "look at this objectively terrible experience I actually had"
And you are like "yeah well that could happen to bsky in theory too, so they're just as bad!"
I've been a mastodon user for almost 2 years, but I never use it because finding interesting people to subscribe to who are actually active is difficult.
I haven't been using bsky because I've really been hoping mastodon takes off, but whenever I hear about how easy it is to onboard and find interesting content, I think about switching.
load more comments
(4 replies)
57 different 3rd party apps is probably a good start. Mastodon has to be easy to on-board and it isn’t for someone with no technical understanding what domains, servers or instances are. To that group Bluesky makes sense. You are signing up for Bluesky. Try to onboard that group to mastodon and they don’t understand if they are on mastodon.social or mastodon.world or any other instance.
Why would they be on one of those fringe services with less users than bluesky? That’s what a non expert understands
Mastodon is a pain in the ass to get signed up for anyone under room temperature IQ, so, like, most of Twitter's users, even the ones smart enough to leave.
I never post, but I do follow a couple of channels on bluesky and mastodon. Bluesky always just works. Mastodon breaks all the freaking time.
load more comments
(5 replies)
I have a friend who has had a mastodon instance since it was gnu social, and there are two reasons I stopped using it.
First, the UI sucks. He installed 3 or 4 different skins and they were all barely usable. I don't want or need something flashy, xfce is my favorite windows manager, but it needs to at least work and not be confusing.
Second, the people suck. It went from being okay to by the time I left I don't think I was seeing any exchanges that didn't have antisemitism or racism.
view more: next ›