This isn't a meme.
this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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It's text over a picture. It's certainly an element of culture passed between people.
this isn't a meme (slang)
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My favorite part is not being able to read the font whatsoever.
That's ok, this map of native American lands is definitely outdated. The Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) lands are much smaller than it should be. As that's the only tribal name I can actually read, I imagine it's a similar story for the other tribes.
The bottom picture isn't accurate, I live on a reservation that isn't listed.
If there's one mistake I notice immediately there's definitely more.
Additionally, most of Oklahoma is still various reservation lands. That was a recent court ruling, so I suspect this is a few years old.
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No, the genocide is still ongoing, it didn't happen it is still happening.
Are there any good resources to learn more about the vast tribes the North American continent was home to? I've always felt ignorant to the rich history and connection with the Earth that the tribes held and passed down.
Not sure about the accuracy of the top map, but it looks like that format could be a great educational opportunity.
On a lighthearted note, if you're from the bay, give Café Ohlone a visit! I had the pleasure of meeting the two head chefs at an event where they cooked for the audience. They showed how candy cap mushrooms, acorn flour, and a duck egg could be incorporated into a brownie mix. I can't speak for the actual restaurant, but it was delicious what they made :)
When it comes to extant tribes, many of them have web pages with info about them. The depth of information varies from tribe to tribe, I think typically encapsulating whatever the tribe feels comfortable sharing publicly. However when it comes to extinct tribes, much of what you'll find will probably be spotty and questionable, as what is known is likely the result of archeology and accounts from nearby tribes.
It's really frustrating how difficult it is to learn about the native cultures as someone on the outside. It gets glossed over in school and what you hear in pop culture is often heavily skewed or butchered to put on a good show for the audience. Then, because of how much of it gets butchered, chopped and screwed, the people who actually know the real stories become understandably protective and reluctant to share them. It'd be nice if there was a central, wikipedia-like site run by the tribes where you could learn about their stories and traditions.
The Canary Effect is an amazing documentary about the genocide of Indigenous peoples in North America. It is free on YT. It was where I first learned how brutal the reality was and how devastating to the population. It also shows how it meets the UN definition of genocide. Amazing how we are raised in the US and this is not only ignored in history class, but is instead framed as Indigenous people living happily in Spanish missions and having Thanksgiving with pilgrims.
If you get a chance to read about John Trudell, he had a fascinating life. He was the spokesman for the American Indian Movement when they occupied Alcatraz in protest of the US breaking their land treaty. The government did not stop terrorizing him and his family after that. There's also an amazing documentary about him but it's been a long time since I've seen it. I think it may just be called "John Trudell."
Both of these will make you walk away angry though.
Unfortunately, not really for the majority of tribes. What we so know is that by the time Europeans had made real efforts to expand westward in North America, The Great Dying had already killed 75-90% of the native population.
Basically, North America had already endured around 200 years of civilization and population collapse starting in 1450. So even what the tribes know about themselves has to be viewed in the perspective of a people who had just lost 90% of their population in a few generations.
Whoa, do you have a source on that? That’s an incredible piece of context
Here is a decent explanation.
People forget that from the time Christopher Columbus arrived to when Europeans began expanding past the Appalachia is a span of 300 years. That's longer than we've been in a country.
American expansion would not have been possible without hundreds of years of what is basically a Continent wide apocalypse. Culture just doesn't survive that level of sustained trauma unchanged.
Never forget? In some states it's downright illegal to teach kids that complex, sophisticated and civilized societies existed here before white people showed up.
But you and I did NOT. I see a lot of people online who can't make the distinction.
EDIT: Thanks for replies, all. Some good conversation here
Of course I’m gonna assume good faith from you here, but I feel like some people boil down issues like this to “well I mean I didn’t do it so stop complaining”, and that’s wildly reductive and irresponsible at minimum.
Arguing the situation in this way sidesteps the uncomfortable and inconvenient reality that the United States is yet still occupying native land, whether it be Hawai’i, Alaska, or the contiguous territories. Yes it’s entirely possible that mine or your ancestors didn’t perpetuate these things as immigration is and has always been ongoing, but the point everyone misses is that we are still here.
I couldn’t possibly imagine belittling natives for acknowledging the fact that their land was taken from them by force. Some real colonialist shit.
So by that logic, the Turks should give Constantinople back to the Romans?
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I feel you, and also acknowledge it is a hairy subject on a grand scale.
I also try to frame the issue in the actual, real moment. I try my damndest to do as little harm as humanly possible to anyone. Should I be forced to give money to someone affected? Land? Should I be punished?
Who benefits? A grandson of someone displaced? A great great grandson? Whole family trees? How do you make shit like this right after so much time?
Mostly, I'm trying to encourage thought and discussion. Fundamentally, I think people should be judged on their own merits and actions, not their lineage.
That will always be an issue until the US government actually has real communication and cooperation with native people.
I don’t necessarily think that citizens of occupied land are automatically responsible for the past actions of a government (not to say that’s what you implied), but said government that committed the atrocities is. As far as the other part of the equation, I suppose the beneficiaries should be determined by the natives themselves.
The outcome needs to be negotiated and yes, the Tax Payer should foot the bill for the redress for the actions of the State and individual wealthy Families should foot the bill for the crimes their wealth stems from. For example: the entirety of Oklahoma's rather impressively inhumane treatment of the Native Tribes needs to be dealt with as the People that profited from the malfeasance are still holding the proceeds of those crimes.
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For fucks sake... 1st off, whether or not this qualifies as a "meme", it doesn't fit the accepted norm of what most people expect to see when they click on "memes"
Secondly, and this may sting a little, but peace as we know it is a relatively new thing in world history. I've seen a multitude of other comments here proclaiming all those other genocides were okay because they were thousands of years ago. It's that "in my lifetime" mentality that just fucking grinds my gears. Through thousands of years of history, one genocide is cherry picked and held up as the worst ever, and the citizens who"benefitted" from it are supposed to pick up the tab? My ancestors weren't Spanish or English, and my family has been here for about 130 years having come from Germany in 1890. How much of the tab am I supposed to pick up?
Fact of the matter is, the only constant in human history is war. We're in a (relatively) peaceful era now, and that's taking into account Ukraine/Russia, Israel/Palestine, and probably another 20 or 30 wars I'm not up to speed on because I'm American and our media doesn't seem to actually inform us on world events from countries we don't buy shit from.
I've seen a multitude of other comments here proclaiming all those other genocides were okay because they were thousands of years ago.
Where did anyone say it was okay because it was longer ago? Please point me to it, because I read the entire thread and did not see this once.
The genocide of native new worlders is historically unprecedented and that is fact. I highly doubt that genocides on the same scale, magnitude and horror are commonplace throughout history. I would urge you to support your claim with evidence or examples if you are going to repeat it, otherwise it is entirely baseless.
How much of the tab am I supposed to pick up?
However much it takes to bring up the status of the natives to what it would have been had they not been massacred and expelled, and undo the propping up of Western civilization on their backs. If you'd like more specific examples, I'd be glad to give them to you. Just ask.
We're in a (relatively) peaceful era now
Source? That's a pretty big claim.
As I'm too stupid and it's to early for me to do these inline...
Your 1st point, here's one, had to scroll about 1/8 down the page for. Granted it doesn't explicitly say it was "okay", the point stands:
"China/Russia/Europe are largely inhabited by people whose ancestry traces back 1000s of years to the same region. That’s very different from North America, where most natives where killed (either through disease or “policy”).
That’s not to excuse their past behaviour (Europeans started the genocide in North America), but it’s still very different."
As you also wanted to be pointed to a source for genocides on the same or larger scale throughout history, allow me to search Wikipedia for you:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides
As to point 3, who exactly determines who is responsible and who will benefit from this paln to raise up America's indigenous population to their proper station? Are 1st generation immigrants from Ghana going to be required to pay up? How about Natives who's ancestry dates back to a tribe that exterminated another tribe? Surely that should also qualify as genocide?
And as to point 4, we, in the west, as I did point out I was American, are in a (relatively) peaceful time, which implies that throughout history it has not been, but I guess I need to spell it out for some people.
At the end of the day, you're not looking to be enlightened or to learn anything, your post was directed to completely discount my points, or to "troll" I will admit I was getting heated reading some of the off the wall bullshit I was seeing, but superlatives aside, I stand by everything I've posted. I apologize if you TRULY didn't know about other genocides, or if your worldview has jaded you to the point where you don't initially see posts that clearly illustrate what I said, at least in the abstract, and you took the time to go back and reread them and allow it to sink in.
Feel free to pick apart this post, too. Nothing is more entertaining in a meme thread than for 2 idiots, myself included, to argue about genocide.🙂
Your first quotation is not about someone excusing a genocide because it happened a long time ago. They are saying that unlike the US, the current inhabitants in those regions can be traced back to the inhabitants thousands of years ago. Which means there wasn't a major genocide or displacement of people. I am not endorsing this statement btw, I don't know enough to confirm it. But it is not a condonation of genocide. It is in fact remarking that a genocide similar to what happened in North America did not happen in those other regions.
As you also wanted to be pointed to a source for genocides on the same or larger scale throughout history
You provided me a list of genocides on Wikipedia. None of them match the genocide against native Americans. Your link proves my point.
I guess I need to spell it out for some
I didn't ask you to paraphrase or restate your point. I asked you to prove it or provide evidence. But I never expected you to be able to anyways, so don't worry about it.
Ah, the internet...
The phrase "That’s not to excuse their past behaviour (Europeans started the genocide in North America), but it’s still very different" effectively translates to "Even though this happened, this is worse".
If you bothered to look at that list, you'll note the mention of the California Genocide of 1846. Reported casualties between 9,492 and 16,094, with other estimates as high as 120,000. Absolutely fucking horrible and a black mark on American history indeed. However, there are 31 other genocides on that list that are higher in number, with three of those even happening prior to California-
Dzungam 1755, 480,000-600,000 Taino 1492, 68,000-968,000 Albigensian 1209, 200,000-1,000,000
I guess it depends on how you define "genocide", but since Wikipedia is generally using the accepted definition, I feel pretty safe in going with what they say.
And I did lay out proof, you're just too caught up in whatever ideology to see it. Feel free to rebut, down vote, cry or whatever makes you feel better, but my point was the world is a horrible place, and terrible things happen to all kinds of groups of people. The "meme" that started all this IS a cherry picked reference to people who were wronged (I'm not disputing they were wronged, but so were... insert any other group of people here). Throughout history, most civilizations are founded on the conquering of another. As horrible as that is, it's a fact. And after the fact, many of the remaining conqured are treated horribly. Also a fact.
Lay out some real numbers, cite an authoritative source (sources) and then we can talk. Until then, I hope the best for you and really wish we could get past this bickering bullshit. Life is too short, and trying to pin the sins of one's father on the current generation isn't solving shit. Work toward bettering peoples lives without having to exact revenge from people who didn't have fuck all to do with it.
Human history is not really a constant war, but that is how Americans have been taught history: as a sequence of wars.
What's relatively new are the concept of mass conscription, economic warfare, and total war. The ability to enact war and destruction on a global and constant level is new. The brief cessations in conflict aren't peace, you're right, but it is also a newer concept that we are constantly in a forever war.
While I mostly agree, I never said constant war, but where I will disagree in a sense is, the prospect of total annihilation would have been a factor millennia ago had the technology been there. Pick your era, the Romans, the various Chinese dynasties, the English, etc... if they had the means, they would have likely used it, having zero regard for the impact it would have later, mostly due to a poor understanding of the technology. I do believe, at least between "the big three", meaning the US, Russia and China, nuclear war is an extremely potent deterrent to all out war. It's the "kids who want to be in the club" that worry me, everyone from NK to Israel. It sucks, but the atomic cat is out of the bag in a world we're all forced to live in, and the polarization of politics and other bullshit only work to drive that wedge deeper and push us closer to... bad shit.
The genocide is still ongoing, they just don't tell you about it. In Canada cops will flat out murder or disappear them right off the streets.
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