this post was submitted on 25 Sep 2024
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I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, "just do this and it'll be better for you". It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it's the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don't talk to the police.
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say "I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don't consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?" That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you've made it clear that you'd like to leave as soon as you're legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They're gonna do what they're gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that's what they're gonna do. You don't fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I'm also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you're who they're looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn't even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
But sir, this doesn't sound like protect and serve at all!
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn't and never was the real intent.
I have seen a video of police playing basketball with the community, problem solved?
I'm 99% sure that you're kidding, but a shitload of people actually think like that. Decades of copaganda in TV and movies weren't for nothing, and now social media is full of it. The 80s was saturated with loose cannon cops who get results and it convinced people that sometimes it's okay to violate rights. Now it's cops doing tiktok dances or flipping water bottles to convince people that hey, they're regular people just like me, and well, golly gee, I'm not a fascist so how can I possibly believe that they're fascists?
Have one involuntary interaction with a cop and your view will change. The cops primarily target brown and/or poor people, so it's no wonder that the vast majority of thin blue line dipshits are financially comfortable honkies who've never had the cops target them.
Sidenote: I've always chuckled at the people who have both a thin blue line bumper sticker and Gadsden flag bumper stick/license plate. Basically a billboard that says "tread on those ones, officers" but they're always the same people claiming "I don't have a racist bone in my body!" Okay, but only because bones can't be racist; it's your brain that's racist.
i absolutely am. I'm also just jaded at this point and don't have the patience to put into words what you said. You've been hitting the nail on the head this whole thread.
Humans are top dog because of two things, sweat and communication.
We're nothing without communicating, and you're doing a killer job at communicating these issues. Keep being you, homie.
Thanks, much appreciated! I just hope that some of what I say gets through to at least one person and teaches them something or helps them in some way. It's all for nothing if I'm just telling people who already know all of this.
It's tough to hold onto hope regarding these things, but it's worth it.
I hate advice like this because you just say empty terms like "obey lawful commands" after saying to not do anything. The question is how do we do this practically. Cops can lie. They can just say whatever is a lawful command. This is why this sort of advice needs to be more specific.
A good example, presenting your driver's license for traffic stops. That's usually a law, is it not? But you say to not consent to searches or seizures. The whole reason people ask for specific practical advice is because they don't wanna get fucked over by the cops but also don't wanna get fucked over for unintentionally pulling sovereign citizen like bullshit.
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you are required to hold a license to operate that vehicle. Ergo, if you are operating the vehicle, the police can ask for proof of your licensure to operate that vehicle, and you are reauired to produce it. That is not covered under search and seizure.
Then people giving this sort of practical advice should explicitly say that lest someone get arrested for failure to present a license or whatever.
The litmus test for whether something is a lawful order is to ask what will happen if you refuse. If the penalty for refusal is your arrest, say that you would prefer not to but will comply under threat of arrest. If it actually wasn't a lawful order but you complied to avoid arrest, you'll learn from a lawyer and get to sue over that.
As somebody else noted, driving is a privilege, not a right; if you're pulled over for a traffic offense, you're obligated to hand over your license and other related documents as requested depending on the state, probably registration and proof of insurance. If you don't, then in many states it's assumed that you were driving without being licensed to do so, and you're probably going to jail.
On the flip side, if the cop asks to search your vehicle, you can tell him no. Don't stop him from doing it anyway, just reiterate that you don't consent to it and fight in court. There are some situations (like you're under arrest and your car is being inventoried and impounded) in which they don't need your consent to get in your car. Probable cause also gets them access to your car without your consent.
If you're asked to do a field sobriety test, just refuse. Same for a breathalyzer. They'll probably take you in and have you use a lab machine at the station, but that's preferable to their bullshit games if you know you're not doing anything wrong. Make quantitative science be the only evidence. Don't drink and drive in the first place and you'll be fine on that front.
Important addition: don't just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don't think you're about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an "I want a lawyer, dawg" situation.
Not something I expected to look up today Context
what is wrong with this world, wow.
Keep in mind that the cops don't have to provide you with their reasonable suspicion in order to demand ID. It's not until court that they have to provide their reasonable suspicion. So they have plenty of time to come up with justification after the fact.
Also, on the Fifth Amendment I thought I had read somewhere about a case where a man simply remained silent and never once invoked his right and it didn't end well for him. I cannot remember the details, but for some reason I thought that you still had to invoke the fifth even if you have not yet answered any questions. I'll have to look back into this later and post back if I find the story.
Thank you!
try to be as white as possible.
They definitely slam white people's heads into the ground for telling them no, too.
but black people are free practice targets to them
Not always.
If you're not white, it is ALWAYS.
Just the act of refusing makes the act of seizing your phone legal or not. If you legally give them your phone by your own will, they are able to use all evidence they find in the courts. If you deny to give them your phone, and they seize it anyways and access it you have a valid path to throw the evidence they discover out as an illegal search and seizure of your property. I'm not a lawyer but that is the general thought process on denying them access to your property.
Edit: Just want to say this mostly pretains to United States law and similar legal structures. This advice is not applicable everywhere and you should research your countries rights and legal protections.
Never thought about it this way. Thanks!
"what's a phone?"
"I don't know why my fingerprint isn't working" (biometrics are disabled)
"I don't remember my passcode" (it's a pattern input field)
"The guy at the phone place changed it for me"
"It's never really worked right."
"There's no Google on it tho." (What does this even mean?)
"Who do you need to call anyway?"
"Can't you just use your own phone?"
Just act like the dumbest creature on earth.
And if you're Black - get shot for "talking back"
input the wrong password like 5 times to lock up the phone then say its muscle memory and you don't remember the password numbers
iPhone tip to require password to open:
or
(Edit: ahh, this tip’s been given several times now, only new info is that either volume down or volume up or both will work)
I gotchu: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uqo5RYOp4nQ
Q: Is it shut the fuck up Friday?
A: It's always shut the fuck up Friday.
Oh man that was fucking hilarious! Thanks for making my night!
It depends a lot on your location on the planet.
And skin color
My wife, a person who passes for pale white, refused to allow a police officer to investigate her car after a speeding ticket. I wasn't here. Her car apparently "matched a description " but they had nothing. She told me they spend another 15 minutes having her sit on the shoulder, then let her off.
I drove with my family through the south. Had two kids in the car. I'm also brown. No reason to be pulled over, but I did have plates from Ohio since it was a rental. Shitty cop said there's a lot of folks "in his parts" that smuggle drugs using rentals and kods and demanded I open the trunk. I kept saying I'm trying to visit my family, I got kids in the car. 20 minutes with a crying kid, In frustration, I relented, showed him the empty trunk.
Depends on local laws, but if the cops ability to seize your property without warrant isn't protected by local laws:
Ask if they have a warrant and if they don't then take your phone oout and power it down, then put it back in your pocket and tell them they can direct complaints to your lawyer because you're not handing over any devices.
If they seize it without a warrant then you can sue the department, although if they have reasonable suspicion then you won't have much luck.
In the states, they'll just accuse the phone of committing a crime and take it anyways
In 2015 they took a black man's car and he took them for 1.25 Million.
Disable biometrics
Android: look up “lockdown mode”
iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
Additionally, running GrapheneOS you can set up a duress pin to wipe the phone profiles if things were to escalate.
Being smart, set up the main profile a bit to look real, but have no actual information. That way it's not obvious tha its been wiped.
Being cheeky, set the duress pin to be something simple like your birthday. So if you are detained/arrested and they try to get into your phone they are the ones to wipe it for you.
I imagine something like “I do not consent to a search nor seizure of any of my property. May I reach into my pocket so I may place my phone in plain view? If my property is going to be seized even against my will, I still want to ensure everyone’s safety.”
Then repeat the no consent line as you place your phone on your dashboard or whatever.
I imagine this means your lawyer will have body cam footage of the double nonconsent and the judge will see you were willing to comply even with potentially unlawful orders so the justice system could sort it out in court instead of someone trying to fight it out on the street.
Do you have a warrant? Then sorry officer I will not hand it over per my fifth amendment right.
From there just say you’re not saying anything else without a lawyer and then just keep demanding a lawyer.
Yes. The cop will get pissed off. But better him mad then you spending years trying to get out of a bogus charge because of some bullshit they found on your phone. Better to be annoying and demand to speak to a lawyer.