this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2024
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As a strong supporter of open-source and community-funded projects like Lemmy, which prioritize serving users over investors, I believe Lemmy has significant potential, and that's why I am here. However, it is clear that its growth is nearing a plateau in its current form. Despite the surge in users following Reddit's API changes, Lemmy continues to primarily attract tech-savvy individuals, politically left-aligned users, and those accustomed to old Reddit. For Lemmy to reach the broader average general audience, meaningful changes are necessary.

The rise of Bluesky demonstrates the importance of ease of use and a user-friendly design. Its polished and familiar interface is a key reason for its growth and appeal as an alternative to platforms like X/Twitter. This same ease of use is what Mastodon lacked, leading to its initial hype fading quickly. The average user is unlikely to adapt to something that feels complicated or unfamiliar, and this challenge also applies to Lemmy.

As someone who started as an average Reddit user and became more tech-savvy over time, I can confidently say that first impressions matter. When users first visit lemmy.world, the default UI is often enough to discourage them from staying. Most will not explore the homepage sidebar to explore, figure out and switch to one of the alternative UIs available, which is unfortunate because a better UI could make a huge difference.

This is why I propose that large servers like lemmy.world adopt Photon UI as the default web interface. Photon is currently the best and most mature alternative UI, offering a visually appealing, modular design that feels familiar to users of new Reddit. It makes excellent use of screen space and provides customization options like compact and cozy views. Unlike some other alternative UIs, Photon is actively maintained and ready for widespread use, although in no way is it perfect, this can also help bring in more contributors to the project development.

While it is important to continue offering other UIs as options, I believe adopting Photon as the default UI could make Lemmy far more appealing to the average Reddit user. First impressions are crucial, and the current default UI has turned off many potential users. If we want Lemmy to succeed as a true Reddit alternative, we need to prioritize user experience and accessibility. Thankfully today, Lemmy still continues to be THE biggest Reddit alternative, while our userbase is still considerably smaller than Reddit, it's the biggest of any alternatives, and Lemmy continues to somewhat be in the spotlight for those seeking alternatives, we can't let growth stagnate, it's high time we make the platform more welcoming and appealing for the average joe.

EDIT: The image I attached is from photon.lemmy.world, which I just realized is using the outdated version of Photon, I have updated the image to the updated current photon version from phtn.app. There are a lot of improvements made.

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[–] Xylight@lemm.ee 65 points 5 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (18 children)

Hi everyone, I'm the dev. Reading all these comments really hurts when it's something you've poured your heart and soul into for over a year.

There's reasons I do everything I do in this UI, and my primary goal is to make Lemmy accessible for everyone.

This is the "cozy" view as well, but there's a "compact" view for people like me who enjoy more information density. Again, my end goal is to make Lemmy accessible. I don't do this for the sidebars for convoluted reasons I won't get into.

I'm not the one trying to advertise it, and I've never really tried to because of the fear of disapproval. I think I should advertise it myself now because then I can showcase the best parts and not get misunderstood. This screenshot uses the "list" view, imo the worst one, with some cursed chrome scrollbars.

Now that I see that the majority of users believe this sucks, I'm not sure if my mission is worth it or if I'm even doing it right.

I'm probably being too sensitive to criticism which I should expect from any project. But this project is the only one I used to feel proud of, then people chiming in claiming it's the ugliest thing they've seen. I don't know im blind to design which is the only thing I considered myself "good" at in terms of web dev.

[–] mesamunefire@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Hey man you and the team did a great job. Love the default UI. It's all open source yeah? So they can change what they want. Kinda like what semaphore social did with mastodon.

[–] Sentau@discuss.tchncs.de 32 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Dude UI (and anything to do with looks) is always a subjective thing. Some people will like it and some people will hate it. I know every dev wants their UI to be loved by everyone but that's a fools errand as there are always people with opposing opinions. What matters is that ~~that~~ you like what you have created. Also know that there are people like me and many others who use photon daily and love the design. Don't let subjective opinions get you down.

[–] dizzy@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 days ago

Don’t be disheartened. You did a great job with your version.

People complain about Apple and Google UIs that they spend hundreds of millions on creating and user-testing. There’s no one-fits-all in UI or UX.

[–] powermaker450@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I haven't met a single person that didn't like Photon. Photon is the only reason I started browsing on desktop regularly. It's lean, clean, and packed with gorgeous transitions; I've rarely ever found a project that gets form and function right.

The internet is a shitty place. I'm not surprised that on Lemmy we have shit like

  • "client with no JS when?"
  • "I don't want normies anyway"
  • "I'm too old to appreciate a modern-looking UI"
  • "eww I don't like this thing that carries subjective opinions, let's never let anyone use this."

The troll energy is strong, but it doesn't change that this is a great project. Alternative UI's are what make Lemmy unique, and you're doing your part. That's appreciated.

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[–] thatsnothowyoudoit@lemmy.ca 17 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Never used your project but don’t let this thread get you down.

Clearly OP loves it - don’t let those who don’t know it or don’t like it be the voices that ring loudest in your ears even if they hurt the most.

I worked professionally in open source at a company with lots of funding. The tools I worked on were used by millions and millions.

Every negative comment hurt so much. Every angry user I wanted to talk to. Most of them wanted to TALK AT me. It all hurt. And I was being paid. The engineers on my teams were burnt by the community time and time again.

If you love what you’re doing and you have a growing or happy audience - stay the course. Listen to criticism, decide if you agree (and maybe take some time when it hurts because the criticism might be valid), make a decision and move on.

Also, and this is going to be tough, maybe think about expanding or modifying what you mean when you say making Lemmy accessible for everyone.

Do you mean making a UI that will become the majority default or making a UI that brings some features (or perspective) for users who see value in those features? Trying to make something for everyone in a pond as small as the fediverse, where there are already a plethora of options is a big lift.

Above all, do you. And that includes this comment which I encourage you to promptly ignore. ;)

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[–] Blaze@feddit.org 15 points 5 days ago

Hello @Xylight@lemm.ee ,

First of all, really sorry that you took it that way. A few comments were indeed harsh, and I guess people were just focused on the interface and forgot that there's actually someone behind it.

I personally value Photon a lot, it definitely helps a lot of people who prefer this type of interfaces.

I think I should advertise it myself now because then I can showcase the best parts and not get misunderstood.

I think you don't even need to advertise it that much. We have Photon as an alternative frontend on one of the instances I follow, and people regularly bug the admin to update it because they like it!

The negativity this post received is probably because interfaces are a very personal matter, and trying to uniformize the default interface is always going to lead to heated discussions

Take care, you are doing an amazing job.

FYI @TheArstaInventor@lemmy.world

[–] TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 14 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Don't take it that way. I find the default UI horrible and primarily use Lemmy on Voyager on my phone because of it. Finding this thread let me find that I can comfortably use Lemmy on desktop too! 🥳

I didn't join Lemmy for a while because I liked the "new" reddit UI better and found Lemmy too different to use easily. I tried all the different options and I didn't like them. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED ON DESKTOP!

And remember survivorship bias. The ones that can put up with the Lemmy UI, or switch to something they like better, are (for the most part) the only ones here now giving feedback.

[–] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago

I for one am a fan of everybody doing UI Fediverse improvements. It is very literally paving the future of the internet, because the future of the internet is not corporate bullshit. The Fediverse needs to be as slick as possible, and more people working on that is sorely, sorely needed!

[–] Hawk@lemmynsfw.com 9 points 4 days ago

Yeah Lemmy has an unfriendly community. UI is really hard and I know exactly what you mean when you say everything has a reason behind it.

FWIW, Ima migrate my personal private Lemmy to photon because I think it looks great.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 8 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

The reason why Reddit killing third-party apps is an issue is that everyone has an opinion on UI, and all of them are correct. The perfect UI for one person will be terrible for another. Don't take what others are saying too harshly. Make the UI that you think is best and there will be other users who agree and want it too. If you make something where you're trying to please everyone you'll end up making something no one likes.

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[–] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 108 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (6 children)

I love the Lemmy UI.

But I'm a gen Xer.

There's some great analysis floating around of how different generations actually interpret UIs (and make decisions about how or whether to engage with them) very differently. So there is no "one size fits all" that will make everybody happy. Change the Lemmy UI to something like Photon and I'd be like... "this is dumb." Making a bunch of very different options is a lot of work. If you want to do it... no one is stopping you. The Lemmy project is opensource and you could go start contributing and making pull requests today. You could go run your own instance and make it look like whatever you want and get the average redditors to join that. I run my own instance. We have a whole two users. It works exactly the way I want it to and federates with exactly who I want it to.

Frankly, I'm not sure Lemmy needs to go out of it's way to appeal to the average redditor in order to have a thriving, healthy community. Sure, there are some things I miss about having a giant user base to engage with, but honestly, I'll trade them for the MUCH MUCH lower toxicity. I don't know that "growing Lemmy" should be our focus. It's not like we're getting paid.

[–] 30p87@feddit.org 32 points 5 days ago (3 children)

I love the Lemmy UI, and am a Gen Z. There's nothing worse than a UI that's slow, takes more time than necessary to load and is overloaded. I would much rather have bare HTTP forms or just make curl calls than using (new) reddit or Photon.

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[–] rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee 69 points 5 days ago (5 children)

You really trying to convince us with a screenshot of the ugliest ui i ever seen huh

[–] imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee 52 points 5 days ago (3 children)

Yeah I used old Reddit. I don't want something that looks like new Reddit

[–] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 24 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You both aren't wrong... But this isn't about you.

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[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Lemmy continues to primarily attract tech-savvy individuals, politically left-aligned users

You say that like it's bad 😊

Your points are valid, but you do run on the assumption that growth is good, which is not an universal truth IMO.

[–] Blaze@feddit.org 13 points 4 days ago (13 children)

As someone trying to keep the non-tech communities active, having a few active posters would definitely be an improvement

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[–] teft@lemmy.world 43 points 5 days ago

Nah, the current UI is fine. We don’t need fancy shit on a link aggregator. Reddit went to shit after “updating” the UI.

Your opinions of “good” or “best” aren’t the same for everyone.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 28 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (5 children)

Different OG ex-redditor here. I think Lemmy's UI is vastly superior. But full disclosure, I used old reddit.

How is it clear that Lemmy's growth is nearing a plateau? And why does Lemmy need broader growth? That seems like a solution in search of a problem. A major advantage of not being a corporate social media property is not having to think like one.

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[–] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 30 points 5 days ago (13 children)

Lol no. We need a UI that doesn't require JavaScript.

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[–] superkret@feddit.org 48 points 5 days ago (8 children)

it is clear that its growth is nearing a plateau in its current form.

Good! Lemmy doesn't need to become big, especially since the less techy masses will likely put loads of load on privately hosted instances without bothering to donate.
The growth could actually kill Lemmy.

I believe adopting Photon as the default UI could make Lemmy far more appealing to the average Reddit user.

Please no!

[–] fxomt@lemm.ee 33 points 5 days ago (5 children)

Eh, i agree that lemmy shouldn't grow too big (Reddit is an example of why, feels like a circlejerk of bots and reposts), but the userbase feels too small currently. On a lot of communities, The activity is 1-2 posts a week, which makes it feel quite dead. And I especially miss the niche communities that you could join on reddit, for small games or obscure topics.

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[–] anzo@programming.dev 12 points 4 days ago

I'm fine with having less normies and an non-algorithmichal echo chamber of fellow leftists and tech savvy persons. These are my homies.

[–] netvor@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

I believe adopting Photon as the default UI could make Lemmy far more appealing to the average Reddit user.

How are you supporting that belief? Any data? Any A/B testing?

I don't want to sound too harsh, but you have sort of marked yourself as a representative of "average OG ex-redditor" or "average joe". Actually, you refer to "average" quite a lot. But honestly, without any supporting evidence, it's just words to make the proposal more appealing or relevant. If we remove all this cruft (which might be supported by anecdotal study, but that should barely count, if even), what arguments are here that actually remain?

Don't get me wrong, if you said that you like "something like Photon" more than the current default UI, then great! It is awesome that other alternatives exist and when people find them, it's great to share the review. (It's how I have discovered so much of great software!) But then again, it's all subjective, right? In your proposal, you seem to tend to state lot of these subjective opinions as if they were objective, which to me makes the proposal just far less convincing.

[–] fxomt@lemm.ee 39 points 5 days ago (5 children)

As much as i love photon, i don't think it should be the default. The default lemmy ui is pretty slick and lightweight, even if it is kind of bad. Photon can be sluggish, and overwhelming for some.

I think they should just improve the default UI (which they are currently), and leave it for the user to decide.

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[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 29 points 5 days ago

I don't think Reddit's redesign is a good thing to aim for. Personally I really like mbin's interface in compact mode.

[–] 4Robato@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I don't think the problem is the UI. Fediverse is more complex by nature than a centralized platform.

You have to choose a server, then an app to visualize (not only online but on the phone too) and there's plenty of alternatives.

If everybody joined the same server we end up with a centralized system and if every large server has to use specific UI what's the point on decentralizing?

I also thought that fediverse had to try to be easier to use but the point is that it's more complicated precisely because the user has more power and hence has to do more decisions.

And I think people have to understand the basics of the fediverse, otherwise people will not stay precisely because it's more complicated. If I didn't care a bit I would be on Reddit not here and I'm currently using both because there's simply much more content there and hopefully with time I can use Lemmy more and less reddit. I'm willing to do the effort of slowly transitioning because I believe in this but people who doesn't care won't stick around.

[–] JigglySackles@lemmy.world 22 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Eww. I don't like that screenshot at all. I vastly prefer the more info dense version I use that looks like classic reddit.

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[–] FrostyTrichs@walledgarden.xyz 15 points 5 days ago (1 children)

For those who may not be aware there are alternative front ends available for Lemmy.

MLMYM is like old reddit. You can see what it looks like here:

mlmym.walledgarden.xyz

Voyager is multi platform interface that also offers a Lemmy frontend. Our implementation is here:

voyager.walledgarden.xyz

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[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 11 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I basically only use mobile apps, so I don't even remember what the desktop UI looks like. But if you say so!

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[–] Oka@sopuli.xyz 19 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Lemmy isn't a UI, it's just data. Each app that connects to lemmy (not instances in the fediverse, but apps that let you sign into a lemmy account) has their own interface. A person can (and probably has) made an app with a modern interface for lemmy.

We are not confined to a specific app or interface, anyone can interface with Lemmy and present the data in their own way.

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[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 21 points 5 days ago (4 children)

That UI is dogshit. Lemmy is a link aggregator and you're saying it should show 2 links on the screen at a time? New Reddit is shit for the same reason.

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[–] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 24 points 5 days ago (7 children)

I just use the Voyager app, which has a great UI, with no need to visit the website at all.

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[–] MITM0@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago

This UI is so beautiful

[–] asudox@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 5 days ago (4 children)

Lemmy will be getting a new, more modern UI sometime soon.

It is being actively developed and you can even try it out today: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui-leptos

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[–] squirrel@discuss.tchncs.de 21 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I know I'm tech-savvy, but I actually enjoy the fact that Lemmy (and the Fediverse) doesn't hand everything to me easily on a plate. The hunt for new interesting communities, my long well curated block list, setting up Lemmy apps exactly to my preferences is part of the fun.

If someone handed me a fully configured Voyager app on day one, I wouldn't have had all the exciting experiences trying a bunch of apps to find the best one for me, learning how to block instances and communities, learning how to correctly link to communities and users, finding new ways to discover communities.

All this stuff is part of why I come back here everyday. A ready out-of-the-box solution is kinda boring.

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[–] lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org 15 points 5 days ago

While I do favour that UI improvements are needed - in particular for guest views and community sidebars, I'd say defo chasing the "big social" trends and UIs is not the way to go. Heck, I left Reddit partly because of the new UI (I know about old.reddit, it's just there's no promise of any kind to maintain it).

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