this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2025
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[–] NeilBru@lemmy.world 76 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (4 children)

An LLM is a poor computational/predictive paradigm for playing chess.

[–] surph_ninja@lemmy.world 30 points 6 days ago (1 children)

This just in: a hammer makes a poor screwdriver.

[–] WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 days ago

LLMs are more like a leaf blower though

[–] Takapapatapaka@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago (4 children)

Actually, a very specific model (chatgpt3.5-turbo-instruct) was pretty good at chess (around 1700 elo if i remember correctly).

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[–] Bleys@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The underlying neural network tech is the same as what the best chess AIs (AlphaZero, Leela) use. The problem is, as you said, that ChatGPT is designed specifically as an LLM so it’s been optimized strictly to write semi-coherent text first, and then any problem solving beyond that is ancillary. Which should say a lot about how inconsistent ChatGPT is at solving problems, given that it’s not actually optimized for any specific use cases.

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[–] nednobbins@lemm.ee 50 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Sometimes it seems like most of these AI articles are written by AIs with bad prompts.

Human journalists would hopefully do a little research. A quick search would reveal that researches have been publishing about this for over a year so there's no need to sensationalize it. Perhaps the human journalist could have spent a little time talking about why LLMs are bad at chess and how researchers are approaching the problem.

LLMs on the other hand, are very good at producing clickbait articles with low information content.

[–] nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 24 points 6 days ago (7 children)

Gotham chess has a video of making chatgpt play chess against stockfish. Spoiler: chatgpt does not do well. It plays okay for a few moves but then the moment it gets in trouble it straight up cheats. Telling it to follow the rules of chess doesn't help.

This sort of gets to the heart of LLM-based "AI". That one example to me really shows that there's no actual reasoning happening inside. It's producing answers that statistically look like answers that might be given based on that input.

For some things it even works. But calling this intelligence is dubious at best.

[–] Ultraviolet@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Because it doesn't have any understanding of the rules of chess or even an internal model of the game state, it just has the text of chess games in its training data and can reproduce the notation, but nothing to prevent it from making illegal moves, trying to move or capture pieces that don't exist, incorrectly declaring check/checkmate, or any number of nonsensical things.

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[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (3 children)

In this case it's not even bad prompts, it's a problem domain ChatGPT wasn't designed to be good at. It's like saying modern medicine is clearly bullshit because a doctor loses a basketball game.

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[–] AlecSadler@sh.itjust.works 58 points 6 days ago (7 children)

ChatGPT has been, hands down, the worst AI coding assistant I've ever used.

It regularly suggests code that doesn't compile or isn't even for the language.

It generally suggests AC of code that is just a copy of the lines I just wrote.

Sometimes it likes to suggest setting the same property like 5 times.

It is absolute garbage and I do not recommend it to anyone.

[–] j4yt33@feddit.org 17 points 6 days ago (4 children)

I find it really hit and miss. Easy, standard operations are fine but if you have an issue with code you wrote and ask it to fix it, you can forget it

[–] AlecSadler@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I've found Claude 3.7 and 4.0 and sometimes Gemini variants still leagues better than ChatGPT/Copilot.

Still not perfect, but night and day difference.

I feel like ChatGPT didn't focus on coding and instead focused on mainstream, but I am not an expert.

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[–] Etterra@discuss.online 10 points 6 days ago (2 children)

That's because it doesn't know what it's saying. It's just blathering out each word as what it estimates to be the likely next word given past examples in its training data. It's a statistics calculator. It's marginally better than just smashing the auto fill on your cell repeatedly. It's literally dumber than a parrot.

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[–] arc99@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago (2 children)

All AIs are the same. They're just scraping content from GitHub, stackoverflow etc with a bunch of guardrails slapped on to spew out sentences that conform to their training data but there is no intelligence. They're super handy for basic code snippets but anyone using them anything remotely complex or nuanced will regret it.

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[–] nutsack@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 6 days ago (3 children)

my favorite thing is to constantly be implementing libraries that don't exist

[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 12 points 6 days ago

You're right. That library was removed in ToolName [PriorVersion]. Please try this instead.

*makes up entirely new fictitious library name*

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[–] Halosheep@lemm.ee 43 points 6 days ago (3 children)

I swear every single article critical of current LLMs is like, "The square got BLASTED by the triangle shape when it completely FAILED to go through the triangle shaped hole."

[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 42 points 6 days ago (3 children)

It's newsworthy when the sellers of squares are saying that nobody will ever need a triangle again, and the shape-sector of the stock market is hysterically pumping money into companies that make or use squares.

[–] inconel@lemmy.ca 19 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's also from a company claiming they're getting closer to create morphing shape that can match any hole.

And yet the company offers no explanation for how, exactly, they're going to get wood to do that.

[–] MrSqueezles@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago

The press release where OpenAI said we'd never need chess players again

[–] PushButton@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You get 2 triangles in a single square mate...

CHECKMATE!

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[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 41 points 6 days ago (1 children)

LLM are not built for logic.

[–] PushButton@lemmy.world 18 points 6 days ago (2 children)

And yet everybody is selling to write code.

The last time I checked, coding was requiring logic.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 10 points 6 days ago (4 children)

To be fair, a decent chunk of coding is stupid boilerplate/minutia that varies environment to environment, language to language, library to library.

So LLM can do some code completion, filling out a bunch of boilerplate that is blatantly obvious, generating the redundant text mandated by certain patterns, and keeping straight details between languages like "does this language want join as a method on a list with a string argument, or vice versa?"

Problem is this can be sometimes more annoying than it's worth, as miscompletions are annoying.

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[–] cley_faye@lemmy.world 25 points 6 days ago

Ah, you used logic. That's the issue. They don't do that.

[–] stevedice@sh.itjust.works 8 points 5 days ago

2025 Mazda MX-5 Miata 'got absolutely wrecked' by Inflatable Boat in beginner's boat racing match — Mazda's newest model bamboozled by 1930s technology.

[–] arc99@lemmy.world 20 points 6 days ago (3 children)

Hardly surprising. Llms aren't -thinking- they're just shitting out the next token for any given input of tokens.

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[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 13 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Using an LLM as a chess engine is like using a power tool as a table leg. Pretty funny honestly, but it's obviously not going to be good at it, at least not without scaffolding.

[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 3 points 5 days ago (3 children)

is like using a power tool as a table leg.

Then again, our corporate lords and masters are trying to replace all manner of skilled workers with those same LLM "AI" tools.

And clearly that will backfire on them and they'll eventually scramble to find people with the needed skills, but in the meantime tons of people will have lost their source of income.

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[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 15 points 6 days ago

All these comments asking "why don't they just have chatgpt go and look up the correct answer".

That's not how it works, you buffoons, it trains off of datasets long before it releases. It doesn't think. It doesn't learn after release, it won't remember things you try to teach it.

Really lowering my faith in humanity when even the AI skeptics don't understand that it generates statistical representations of an answer based on answers given in the past.

[–] FourWaveforms@lemm.ee 5 points 5 days ago

If you don't play chess, the Atari is probably going to beat you as well.

LLMs are only good at things to the extent that they have been well-trained in the relevant areas. Not just learning to predict text string sequences, but reinforcement learning after that, where a human or some other agent says "this answer is better than that one" enough times in enough of the right contexts. It mimics the way humans learn, which is through repeated and diverse exposure.

If they set up a system to train it against some chess program, or (much simpler) simply gave it a tool call, it would do much better. Tool calling already exists and would be by far the easiest way.

It could also be instructed to write a chess solver program and then run it, at which point it would be on par with the Atari, but it wouldn't compete well with a serious chess solver.

[–] Sidhean@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 6 days ago

Can i fistfight ChatGPT next? I bet I could kick its ass, too :p

this is because an LLM is not made for playing chess

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